Rubaud Blend using green flours
As I understand it, Rubaud was very adamant on using freshly-milled flours. I don't recall seeing it but with 70% of the blend being straight BF, he must be talking about the other 30% (composed of 30% each of hard winter and spring wheat, spelt, and 10% rye).
On re-reading Hamelman, I only incidentally caught his mention that whole grains can be used green. I don't recall Hamelman saying why, but perhaps I've forgotten.
Is there an intrinsic oxidative pathway in bran? Could someone lay it out? Does it apply to all common baking whole-grains, e.g., rye?
Thanks,
Edit: Just read his comment on green whole-grain flour:
...because of superior nutrition and flavor, freshly milled whole grains can and should be used immediately...
So, didn't see anything on whole grains and oxidation of thiol compounds, but understand his note on the fragility of whole grains' lipids and so forth.. I would think the oxidative requirement still obtains, and so conjecture that there must be something in the bran that allows this oxidation. Anyone?
I always use my flour immediately after grinding, but I am curious: why not use it when it is super fresh?
Yippee
Hi Yippee,
As I understand it, that's not a concern with whole grain flour, such as is obtained with home milling. I'm only presuming it's something to do with oxidation, but would like to know more about why.
This is a bit hard for me to wrap my head around. Could you slow down a min, I'd like to understand.
Milling is one area of study I have not ventured deeply into.
Btw, I am Trent. Nice to meet you.
Hi Trent, great to meet you. You should know there are many people here who can speak with authority, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.
Actually, just google "green flour" and oxidation. This says it far better than I could say:
-from Hamelman and others to the extent I can understand the o-chem, the most widely accepted thought is that oxidation (such as takes place in white flour, aged a few weeks exposed to air) removes thiol compounds; thiol compounds impede the formation of di-sulfide groups, and it is these groups that strengthen gluten formation in flour. Green white flour performs poorly, though I've never had any means to test this.
This doesn't obtain in whole-grain flour. I'm hoping to learn if there is some intrinsic oxidative pathway perhaps liberated by bran shearing or the like.
So - freshly milled or "green flour" needs oxidation one way or the other. Time and air exposure is one (the best, imo) way, the addition of oxidizing agents ( e.g., "bleached") is another.
I've tested it, not scientifically. The flour I get from the miller, I only purchase KA Sir Galahad, comes fresh, usually milled within a few days of delivery. I felt like I noticed a difference in gluten development post-covid lockdown. I am now at the conclusion that pre-covid, there was a good amount of flour in storage so I was receiving "older" product by default. Then people started buying up the flour, depleting the stock, and I started receiving greener flour because of this. Again, not scientific. At that time I was not tracking data, so I don't have proof. Currently, I order at least 3 weeks of flour ahead and get it into the bakery so it can age.
I took over Rubaud's old spot after he died.
Speaking to one more masterly than myself in orders of knowledge! Forgive the rudimentary writing - it's where I am on the road of discovery. I think I should stick to sensory impressions and search for fundamentals...
Very interesting on your KA shipments. I wonder how many other bakers have experienced this.
Good lord. I'd previously seen this, but embarrassingly didn't make the connection until now. You may just have exposed yourself to annoyingly earnest laymen or women such as myself. I bow in acknowledgement and gratitude for what you do (bowing - in the Japanese sense, to honor fully; my lineage from zen and martial temple life. Meant with complete sincerity).
Thank you Trent. Looking forward to reading you.
Paul
ps: I used to live a couple hours south of you, in Landgrove. I was part of a Shakespearean company in Lenox, MA, and had lost both parents within 6 mos. of each other; so took time off after the summer season, needed solitude and wild places to sort it all out. I miss the hell out of VT. NE generally. All my best to you and your bakery.
Great to hear! Stop by the bakery if you are ever in the area! It's a pretty cool place.
Gerard was a huge fan of Japanese culture. He would be impressed. Rumor on the street is he coached the English national ski team at the 1972 winter olympics in Japan and this is where he gained his admiration for the culture.
Excellent strength, no issue with gluten development. Super delicious whole-grain bread. The aging process takes so much more work. I'll pass.
Yippee
Yippee -
It seems you are talking about whole grain breadmaking. Yes? If so, as mentioned, you don't need to age the flour. Again the phenomenon applies to white flour.
To the original question, I'd love to know how whole grain provides for the oxidative pathway, if indeed it does.
Look into talking with Blair Marvin @ Elmore Mountain Bread. Or her husband. They are milling and bread experts.
Awesome, thanks Trent. Would love to come out sometime.
I watched that video on CLAS. I don't see the benefit of CLAS. Could you explain the benefit to me? I'd like to understand.
based on the excellent quality of bread made with it and my dough handling experience. For me, seeing/tasting is believing. For your "technical" question, I'd defer it to a bread expert like Rus or the scientists/scholars on our forum to answer because my knowledge of bread science is quite limited.
Yippee
Thank you Yippee, for this and your many contributions. I'll look into the CLAS issue. And thanks, too, on the science folks, as I'm definitely not one of them. Perhaps they'll pop in.
Thanks to Trent as well - if you think it's OK, I'd love to exchange with your millers a bit.
Thanks again.
Paul
btw, you might have said it somewhere; if so, apologies - but would you mind telling me what mill you use? Looking in to the MM.
I'm not entirely sure specifically what is your question is but I think I can provide some insights...
Fresh milled wholemeal flour is generally used without aging because the fats in the germ are prone to oxidation, which creates off-flavours. Although one persons "stale" might be another persons "nutty" - typically low levels of oxidised of fats are often perceived as nutty flavoured.
It's worth noting that wheat and consequently wholemeal flour contains lipoxygenase enzymes, mainly from the germ, while white flour derived mainly from the endosperm contains very little (or trace) amounts of this enzyme.
Thanks, mwilson. Yep, I do know of the lipolytic breakdown of whole wheat (see my first post, last paragraph). I work (or did) work with various milks in traditional or artisanal (French alpine) cheesemaking, including goat's, where lipolytic changes good and bad were a prime concern, so am pretty familiar with this area.
My question goes specifically to oxidation removing thiol compounds and thus allowing for the formation of disulfides, rendering good gluten development and a better breadmaking flour. With white flour, this is achieved with natural exposure to air over the course of a few weeks, or in the alternative, chemical oxidizing agents.
Whole grain can be used immediately on milling. I understand the organoleptic reasons one would want to do that, but that's not my question. Is there something intrinsic to bran that somehow liberates the oxidation pathway, say, upon shearing? And in so doing, gets that same disulfide formation as is found in aged white flour, and with the disulfide formation, the same gluten-improving pathways?
but I think I can see where you're going with this.
You're making an assumption here, that somehow fresh wholemeal flour is free from thiol groups. Not so, fresh milled flour would be inherently reductive in nature and why those that use it are aware of how fast degrading their dough might be.
Step back and see the appeal for each type of flour:
Fresh milled, for that fresh wheat flavour but not for its baking performance.
White flour for its baking performance but not for its overt flavour.
Make sense?
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Let's set aside the beneficial sensory (I said "organoleptic") quality of using freshly milled, whole wheat flour. There is no argument there. In fact, I stated that with my first post.
So, that is not my question.
I do not say there are no thiol groups. I am asking whether there is some intrinsic means from bran for oxidizing the groups and eliminating them from the equation so that disulfides form, and, despite the physical deleterious effect on glutens - shearing - the gluten quality is on par with aged white flour.
We want to use freshest possible whole grains as lipolytic changes are rapid; we don't age WW flours for this reason. My question is solely with respect to oxidation, thiol elimination, disulfide formation, and gluten cross linking and strengthening. White flour needs time or oxidative agents. Is there something native to bran that allows this process spontaneously, so that freshly milled WW automatically has its own gluten-strengthening formations?
Am I clear as to the question, all?
It's hard not see a contradiction with what you're saying there, especially when you say "thiol elimination" and "spontaneously". Again, that is an assumption and not the case. Fresh milled flour is reductive in nature.
Oxygen incorporation while kneading / mixing, will remove some of those thiol groups however, and the lipoxygenase will too but require the molecular oxygen to do so.
"intrinsic," as I said. "Spontaneous". "Endogenous." I am not sure what the contradiction is.
Does whole wheat have the capability to oxygenate thiols on its own, similar to the aging or chemical additive process one finds in white flour?
Not sure I have any other ways to say it, so I'll leave off and see if another takes it up. Thanks.
Perhaps I should add, to take from Hamelman, I'm not a scientist. My Berkeley degree is in comparative political analysis, with grad study focusing on the dynamics and structures of the frenetic push to nation-statehood in the US and W. European nations mid-19th on.
Curiously, the scholarly work is devoid of "science," lol. I'm an experienced traditional cheesemaker and one-time brewer. I have gone in fairly deep into mol. biology and biochemistry (bits of rheology and physical science), but all that is very narrow and alas, I don't have the brain. I had to work very hard to understand, and particularly now, in cognitive decline, last in first out and I remember less and less of this rather alien (to me, not folks like mwilson and other very bright folks here) body of knowledge.
Not a scientist, just a curious baker.
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