June 4, 2020 - 10:28am
Rye Loaf
I’m a fairly novice bread (machine) maker, can turn out a reasonable sourdough or whole meal, but have yet to arrive at a reliable rye and wholemeal loaf.
I want ideally a third rye flour to the two third whole meal. Adding white flour helps, but reduces intensity.
Any suggestions for a good recipe please?
Bread tastes fine, but I get regular and unattractive collapses. See attached (no laughing please)!
Thanks
Did you use a formula/recipe specifically for rye+wholemeal?
Both rye and whole meal ferment faster/more than white flour, therefore they require less yeast or starter/levain.
(I have not been successfull using sourdough in my bread machine. The rise timings never seem to work right for me.)
So they (rye and whole meal doughs) tend to over-proof or over-rise, and the poor gluten of rye does not give enough scafdolding/framework to maintain air pockets that are produced.
in your pic... The air holes on the outer crust, against the pan, lead me to believe that your loaf had over-proofed. And the ragged top edges might be due to a too wet dough.
(If your dough is too wet/soft, the paddle tends to spin underneath it, with the dough mass sitting on top, tented, as a blanket, and the paddle bangs it around, -- as opposed to maintaining a ball shape that gets "walked" around the pan. At least that's what happens in my machine.)
I've used my bread machine with whole meal too. Whole meal needs the longer rise time of the "whole meal (whole wheat) program" setting to soften the wheat, and it needs the longer bake time of the whole meal program too.
So, to compensate for the faster rise, and excess rise of whole meal, but over a longer period of time due to the program, the yeast needs to be cut back compared to a white flour loaf.
My bread machine is also picky/sensitive to the hydration of the dough ball. So I end up baby-sitting the darn thing, adding water, adding flour, pinching off a little excess dough, so as to get the perfect size dough ball, at the right hydration/softness, so that the paddle "walks" the dough-ball around the pan correctly. Does that seem familiar with your machine?
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Things to try:
- Reduce yeast or starter/levain by 25% to 33%.
- If you have some, try using maybe 10% strong white bread flour (12% or higher protein), to compensate for the rye's poor gluten, then use 30% rye, and 60% whole meal, to get your 1:2 taste ratio.
- Keep track of how much flour/water you add, or how much dough you pinch off, so in future bakes you can get the proportions right at the start.
- Because whole meal hydrates slower than white flour, the behavior during the initial mix "looks" off, even when it's the right proportion. So have faith it will work out, after you get the proportions "dialed in".
- To verify the mixing behavior when using mostly whole meal, I restart my bread machine after about 10 minutes into the initial mix. So, by the end of the mix (after the restart) I can see that the dough has absorbed the water and will perform correctly during the knead cycle.
--
I realize all brands of bread machines are different, but maybe the above will explain some general concepts to help you get the most out of your machine and your ingredients.
Thanks - thats really helpful
Yes, I wondered if the collapse was too much liquid.
I use a Panasonic machine on wholemeal setting (5 hours), a Rye paddle but the machine is too old to include a rye setting. Later models do.
I base on the Panasonic wholemeal recipe (which always works fine for w/meal) 600g flour (400/200 split), 1.5 tbsp each of sugar and milk powder, 1.5 tsp salt, .5tsp bread improver (recipe asks for Vitamin C), 25g butter and 420ml water. This is a straight mix and bake, not sourdough.
I’ll try reducing the yeast. That never occurred to me. The liquid too. Mixing with a bit of white flower works but introduces a lightness which I (and my family) don't want!
Thanks Again.
Having more than one paddle is a new thing to me! I didn't know that.
How many paddles does your machine have? What other paddles have you tried with this rye/wholemeal mix?
What's in your bread improver? If it has amylase, or malted flour, that would contribute to the over-fermentation.
Hi
Thank for the speedy reply.
Panasonic do at least two.
The rye paddle seems to work for plain old wholemeal so I have stuck to that. It hadn’t occurred to me to go back to the original paddle.
I’ve just put a loaf on with the suggested reduced yeast (1tsp) and reduce liquid (400ml).
I’ll let you know the outcome in about 5 hours!
Much better!
I may reduce the liquid a little and put a little more yeast in, or reduce even more?
I could just settle for this rise, given the amount of rye in it.
more butter perhaps?
39687F76-AF29-4689-B550-239F8B9A37E2.jpeg
thanks for the tips!
The top looks lots nicer. Congrats!
I can't see the sides very well in that shot. If you can do a side photo, and upload it with a crumb pic when you cut it open, that will better tell you which way to go with any further adjustments.
It is said that rye and whole meal needs a goodly amount of time before cutting the loaf open, so I hope you can resist the temptation and wait 10 to 12 hours before slicing.
(What country/time zone are you in?)
Also, one more thing I'm curious about, does the package of bread improver say what's in it?
89F596D2-50D9-488A-8F8A-AFE7AC968333.jpeg
so, sides not perfect and crumb a bit Inconsistent. It tastes great though, although it didn’t survive the 12hour wait.
i’m UK, GMT time.
improver contains;
Full fat soya flour
calcium sulphate
dextrose
absorbic acid
wheat flour
iron
niacin
thaimin
All sounds hideous, maybe I should stick to vitamin C as Panasonic suggest!
Did the top sink a little during cooling, or is this another loaf?
I think you're going to be relegated to a tight crumb with the wholemeal wheat and the rye. Your's is a deep pan, tall loaf, so that is a lot of dense weight to support.
The slightly sunken top and airier crumb in the upper part seems to me to indicate you could still reduce the yeast and water just a tiny bit.
My bread machine is not very forgiving, and for each recipe, or type/mix of flours, it seems there is a narrow band for the "sweet spot". Especially so with whole wheat flour.
No, it didn’t sink after (must have been the camera angle) ? I will try a small further reduction on both liquid and yeast as you suggest and keep you updated as to progress.
As you say, the expectation in a rye loaf is a dense crumb.
One of the links on the panasonic site does a total rye loaf with no fat - its a very solid (small) loaf. Click here
Thanks again for the feedback!