Need some help please. Bottom burst.
Hello folks. Long time no see. Hope everybody is safe and healthy in those strange days.
Well, those times are one of the reasons I could start baking again.
Some time ago I purchased a new oven. It's an electrical oven with a stone. Two resistances (top and bottom) independently controlled. Max 300ºC. It's not an expensive one, made to be used in small businesses. No steam or whatsoever. This is a picture of it. It has a baking stone.
As I was working a lot, I just baked some pizza, and not so may loaves in it so far.
Now, in quarantine, I'm baking all the bread we eat here. But this is the second batch that came out with the same problem.
The loaves are bursting in the bottom, not at the score.
I've elected some possible culprits: Lack of steam. To hot the top resistance and/or to cold the lower one. To little proofing (I read somewhere that could be the cause os bottom bursts).
As you will see in photos I got a dense strip in bottom parts of my loves. Also the bottoms are pale. So probably I got the lower resistance to cold. Could this be the cause of the dense strip? Or is a fermenting problem??
As for steam I was hoping that the small space and some water jets in the stone would be enough, but perhaps I'm wrong, and gonna need to find a steam contraption again...
As for the recipe, well there isn't. It's 90% WF, 10%WW. Hydration around 65%. Salt and some butter.
Enough with words some images to explain better.
Thanks for any input.
Admittedly, I can’t give too much advice regarding the pale bottom crust since I struggle with that too but the first thing I notice is that the scores are FAR too small and shallow for those loaves. A proper score(s) should span the entire length of dough and be about 1/4 of an inch thick so as to allow for even expansion. That’s the most likely cause of the bottom blowing out; there was no other place for the dough expand out from so it did so from the seam (I’ve actually found that seams can make pretty good openings for expansion since I once accidentally flipped a baguette upside down while loading it into the oven and it rose beautifully lol).
Well, perhaps, that crossed y mind also. But I usually got good oven spring and ears with shallow scoring, when using my old oven. Anyway, thanks for your answer. I'll try a deeper score. Thanks
Hi, what temp are you baking at and how long do you preheat the stone? You've got great results with no steam, but the only time I've ever had a pale bottom and raw strip like that has been when the bottom heating element of my oven broke and I didn't realise it. Looks fermented fine, to me, nice crumb! I'd check that the bottom heating element in your oven still works and is screaming hot before putting the bread on. E.g. I preheat a Dutch oven to 250C for 45 mins.
Hi Pinja. I'm starting with 250ºC. But some first loves I baked in this oven got to dark in the bottom, so I got the bottom resistance cooler. Like 200ºc. I preheat the stone until the light that shows the resistance is on turns off. Theoretically indicating that the temperature has been achieved. I takes about 40 min to happen.
Thanks for your time.
Happy baking
I think 200C is far too cool for a bottom heating element for bread. Maybe there's a middle ground you can find? Keep the bottom high (maybe 230 instead of 250?) and the top lower, as someone commented below.
They also look pale to me in general--I'd bake them longer. Though if you like the crust that way, pay no mind to my comment :)
If the top element is turned on, even at a low setting, it will ruin his bread.
Pizza can use an exposed top element, somtimes. That's what famous chef Tony Gemignani does.
By the way, vk's oven does look like a pizza oven. But he has to learn how to set the settings for loaf bread. And, as MTloaf says below, he must be patient and wait for the stone to come up to the proper temperature. That takes much longer time than it takes the air to come up to temperature.
Flatbread can use an exposed top element sometimes. I use the top element to finish cooking my naan bread, and give it brown spots. see video here http://www.madhurasrecipe.com/breads/Naan-with-Yeast
Loaf bread can use the lid of a dutch oven to get heat, but it is not electrified, so that is a different story. Dutch oven lid = 500 degree F max. Electrified heating element = 1400 degree F.
A domed brick oven uses the roof dome to heat, but again, it is not an electrified heating element at 1400 degree F.
Loaf bread never uses an open/exposed electrical heating element at the top.
I see... It's not an exposed heating element, but it's probably, almost the same...
thanks for yout help. Let's see If I can set things properlly next loaf.
I'm sure everyone appreciates this info, but just to say that not everyone has that much control over their ovens, and there are a lot of different situations people are trying to work with. I could tell you that if the top element in my previous oven was off, I would end up with a pancake burnt on the bottom and raw on the top. It's still bread if it looks and tastes like bread no matter how "properly" it was prepared. I would not call the previous loaf OP posted "ruined."
I have read that the temperature light, will go off, once the ambient temperature has reached the temperature for which the oven was set; but that the stone, itself, will not have reached that temperature all the way through. In order for the stone to fully reach that temperature (depending on how thick your stone is) it may take up to an extra hour, after the light has gone off. If the stone isn’t thoroughly hot enough, it can actually insulate the bottom of your bread from the oven’s temperature, instead, and give you an unevenly cooked product. The stones in my oven are 3/4 of an inch thick, and I wait an extra hour.
Thanks. I had baked a batch of 16 pitas just before the loaves. I think It was my mistake to put the lower heatting to low. I think I'll buy a infrared thermometer, but until it arrives many batches will be baked :)
HappyBaking
thx
1. For loaf bread, do not use top heat. Use bottom heat only. Top heat sets the crust too soon, preventing expansion at the top, so it expanded out the bottom.
You can use top heat at the same time as bottom heat, both together, only to PRE-heat the stone. But you must turn off top heat before loading bread, maybe 2 or 3 minutes before loading bread.
2. If it has a fan (convection oven) you must keep it off. The fan, convection mode, dries out the crust too soon.
3. If the baking stone was originally included with the oven, it should be fine. However, if you added the baking stone separately, there is an important thing to know: A baking stone needs clearance of 1.75 inches, or 4.5 cm all around the edges between the stone and the walls of the oven. If there is not clearance, the hot air will not circulate correctly, causing the loaf to bake unevenly, and might hurt the oven. 4.5 cm is not exact, but a rough estimate. (Hot air circulates on its own, even without a fan.)
Hope this helps.
Hi Idavendi. Thanks for your answer.
1. Not use at all? Really. Never thought of that. Gonna try.
2. No convection.
3. The stone is original. But has only a little gap between the stone and the oven walls, like 1cm or less . But the stone is set just above the heating element. There is no "under the stone" in the oven.
thanks a lot
>1. Not use at all? Really. Never thought of that. Gonna try.
Really! Not ... at ... all. Never, for scored loaf breads that you want to expand.
Maybe for pizza, sometimes. Maybe for flatbread, sometimes.
Some foods are cooked from the top. But not loaf bread.
Bon chance, et bon appétit, amigo.
P.S. MTloaf and newchapter are correct. The stone must come up to temperature too, and that happens at some point after the inside air reaches proper temperature. The oven thermometer(s) most likely reads the air temp, not the stone temp.
Wishing you much success, and a tasty loaf of bread!
Thank thanks. Will try soon.
HB
I'll make some more experiments and post back here.
Thanks you all!!
Happy Baking
There was almost no heat on the bottom and the top dried out. You should preheat until the stone is hot enough. Get an infrared thermometer to check it. Would have been a nice loaf otherwise.
I think it would have been a nice loaf.
Thanks for the inputs, will do.
Happy baking!
The last picture... It is depressing a bottom of a loaf so pale :(
VK, I am a little familar with Middle Eastern baking, and South Asian baking. It would help me to help you if I knew what country you are in now, and what country you (or your family) originally grew up in. Thanks. (I am in Indiana, USA.)
Also, is the upper heating element partially enclosed in a perforated or "semi open" metal "guard" ?
And, do you know if the temperature light for the bottom heating element is measuring the "stone temperature" or the "air temperature" ?
(Your oven looks perfect for pita, naan, and pizza!)
I'm brasilian, hiding from the virus at home in Brasil. Where I have grown up. The upper heating element is not visible, concealed in a metal roof.
Not sure where the thermostat of lower resistance is located, there is one in the side wall... I'll look for it before next bake, as I'm removing the stone to clean it.
Indeed It baked a good pita and a good pizza as well. I'm pretty confident I'm going to learn how to bake a good loaf in it.
What would you say, 250ºc is the go temperature for the stone (not using top heater)?
thx
If you are using someone's recipe for the bread, I would start at the temperature stated in the recipe.
If you are inventing your own recipe, then try to find an already-existing recipe that is close in terms of shape of dough, mass of dough (grams), hydration %, and the type of flour used.
--
My experience may be helpful. It is not the same oven, but maybe you can get something from this procedure. And you can decide what part is applicable to your oven and your baking.
I have what is called a "toaster oven" with a front door. It has a top heating element, and a bottom heating element. I use both top and bottom heating elements during warm-up (pre-heat). The elements turn off when the air temperature reaches the dial setting. But... my stone and my cast iron plate are not up to desired temperature yet.
It takes 30 minutes for the stone and cast iron plate to reach desired temperature (about 210 C). But... the heating elements will turn off and on about 6 or 7 times during those 30 minutes. Air temp reaches 210 C quickly, about 7 minutes, but a cold stone and cold plate take longer to reach 210 C while sitting in 210 C air.
So, just the indicator light is not enough (in my situation), it only "knows" or "sees" air temp, It does not "see" the cast iron plate's temperature.
And, when I open the door, the air temp goes down 15 degrees C, but the plate still stays hot, and does not change immediately.
I put my dough in the oven, then I change the setting to use only bottom heat, so the top of my dough does not burn. (The top heating element is in a perforated, or partially-enclosed metal cage.)
So maybe something like this is happening to you. If your indicator light only "sees" the air, and not the stone, the stone will be colder, until some minutes later, when it warms up.
--
Now, here is how I "cheat". .... If I want the air and the stone and the plate to be 210 C, I set the dial for 230 C, for the warm up period only. That keeps the heating elements turned on a higher percentage of the time, and my stone and plate warm up faster, maybe 20 minutes instead of 30.
When the temperature reaches 230 C, and after 20 minutes, I change the setting back down to 210 C (and turn off the top heating element.) And so... when I open the door, and lose heat, then things come down to the 210 C or so that I want.
--
I just realized, The one picture of your slice shows the top crust a dark brown, and the bottom is not crusty or brown at all. That indicates too much top heat in relation to bottom heat. So that causes me to believe your stone never got to the desired baking temperature.
Hope this helps. Bon chance, amigo.
Hey guys, not perfect yet, but much closer. Thanks to all your help. Still looking for the right combination, but it is almost to use only the lower resitance. Almost... Here are some pics:
Much better hu? :)
Thanks
Congratulations.
Here's another idea.
_After_ your loaf has finished rising/expanding, then _maybe_ you can turn on the top heating element a little, towards the end of the bake, but not much. It would take some experimentation, but it might help you to achieve the perfect brown color to the upper crust, without burning the bottom crust.