March 9, 2020 - 6:19pm
Stupid question maybe... TFW divided between Biga & recipe?
New at bread. Have not yet used preferment but reading and learning... almost ready to dive in.
If you have a recipe that does not call for a preferment (say a biga, least scary to me!?), and you wanted to make that recipe with a biga, would you take part of your TFW to make the biga with, then reincorporate? What about liquids?
- Bread Obsessed AND Confused ?
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If you want to bake a bread with a biga (which I wholeheartedly endorse as a preferment for newbies), do not, as an inexperienced baker, try to adjust a non-biga recipe to incorporate one. You are at enough of a disadvantage being new to bread baking, don't make it unnecessarily harder by reinventing the wheel. There are thousands of perfectly good and tested recipes out there with wet (poolish) and dry (biga) preferments to start out with. Save the creative recipe-tweaking for when you have a better feel for the dough and the oven.
From my direct experience, Jeff Hammelman's BREAD is a superb primer for the inexperienced baker. I was and Chef Jeff was 99% responsible for guiding me out of newbie status. Highly recommended. He has some simple preferment formulas to start with. And of course, if you hit roadblocks or mysteries, post your queries here.
And I can't resist pointing out that a former regular here at Fresh Loaf, Varda Haimo, was so "Bread Obsessed" that she started her own commercial bakery called....wait for it ....Bread Obsession. Very delicious and successful. Many of your namesakes here.
Tom
Agreed @not tweaking at this stage, just trying to understand the theory of it. I found a great explanation here if other newbies are curious. https://www.bbga.org/files/BakersPercent-Healea.pdf
I love the passion for bread found in this forum! And thank you for the recommendation, I will look it up (my bread bible is currently the anniversary edition of Peter Reinhart's BBA + devouring any info Google brings up when I do a specific search!).
@bread obsessed: I thought the name a good fit since for 4-5 months I've been baking 4-5 loaves a week + pizza dough in spite of working 50+ hours these days, and find myself thinking/reading about my bread between meetings? ?. I joke to my husband that my job is in the way of my bread making... ?
Obsesssed,
I think Our Crumb is being more cautious (on your behalf) than need be. As long as I'm being organized (not a sure thing every day) I always use a poolish (equal amounts flour and water) aiming for ~25% of total flour. I use this one size fits all approach whether I am making sourdpough batards, baguettes or croissants. You do need to adjust additional flour and water increments to maintain your target hydration, but it's pretty easy math. Nothing scary about it. Just mix up the poolish at the same time that you mix your final generation of levain. Another one size process for me...I always plan 12-18 hours for final generation levain and poolish build.
Oh, and why poolish? KISS principle again. Because it's easy to know that half the weight of the poolish is flour and half is water. Biga not a problem. Just slightly different math.
Just do it,
Phil
Thank you for the encouragement Phil!
One thing... I don't know what you mean by levain... is that another type of preferment? (hahahaha... as you can see, I'm starting from the very beginning, with almost zero knowledge!... but,
with more passion than most and thirsty for knowledge!! ☺️)
Easy to get lost in all the terminology.I distinguish the starter I store in my fridge from the levain I build using the starter. I try to build at least 3 levain generations (3 separate feedings usually 12 hours apart) before I mix dough. For most practical levain is really another name for starter. If I need to refresh my starter cache, I just make extra levain, feed it 1:1:1 and pop it in the fridge.
Make sense?
Ah! Got it!
Thank you!
To experiment with the maths, you might like to have a play with my online calculator: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62608/sourdough-system-calculator
FWIW I don’t really differentiate between ‘biga’, ‘poolish’ etc. - I just look on them all as ‘starters’ with different levels of hydration :-)
To contradict myself however I do use the term ‘levain’ to refer to the larger quantity of active starter that I’ve built up in order to use in the current dough, even though in reality it's just a 'big starter' - as is the production dough I suppose.
Personally I’ve found the most interesting and enlightening part of the whole process has been to get a better understanding of what’s going on in a sourdough fermentation down at the microbial level. Having understood that (and numerous ‘pro’ chefs, including dare I say Hammellman despite all his expertise, have some serious misunderstandings about it) then a lot of what goes on in the recipes makes a lot more sense. A good starting point are the very accessible postings on here by microbiologist Debra Wink, e.g.: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
Bread Obsessed,
the % biga/poolish/levain/starter is very dependent on types of flour used in the formula, and the timings/temperatures of the bulk ferment and final proof.
Longer ferment or proof: less biga/poolish/levain.
Higher temperature ferment or proof: less biga/poolish/levain.
Higher percentage of whole wheat or higher extraction% (more bran enzymes means more sugar produced): less biga/poolish/levain.
sugar/honey/dates or other sweetener: less biga/poolish/levain.
Longer autolyse (more time to make more sugar out of the starch): less biga/poolish/levain.
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Example: with a two hour auolyse, my 90% home-milled whole-wheat loaves generally take 3.5% Prefermented Flour (7% levain at 100% hydration) for an overnight bulk ferment, but 7% prefermented flour (14% levain) for a 4.5 hr rise.
When you say higher temperature ferment, that refers to the ambiant temperature that your ferment is in?
Also "autolyse"... is that the first rise? (see!... really starting from scratch!... ☺️)
>When you say higher temperature ferment, that refers to the
>ambiant temperature that your ferment is in?
Both dough temp and air temp, but mainly air temp, because the dough eventually equalizes with air temp.
>Also "autolyse"... is that the first rise?
Autolyse is before the bulk ferment (before first rise) with no leaven or yeast. It allows some of the flour to be broken down into sugar by the enzymes in the flour. There are exceptions -- some use the term to mean situations where leaven is included, but no kneading or folding is done -- but then if the leaven is included, it counts as part of the fermentation time.
In BBA and otherr books, Reinhart uses the term "soaker", which is equivalent to "autolyse".
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I would recommend starting with a good bread cookbook, such as one of these:
- The Bread Baker's Apprentice, by Peter Reinhart. (update: saw on another thread that you have this.)
- Crust and Crumb, by Reinhart.
- Artisan Breads Every Day, by Reinhart. -- Currently only $1.99 for Kindle edition.
- Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast, by Ken Forkish.
- Bread, by Jeffrey Hamelman.
You can't go wrong with one of those books.
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If you want to delve more into poolish and "barm", and get some more of Reinhart's formulas, pick up a used copy of Crust and Crumb, on the Amazon Marketplace (used books).
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If you are interested in mostly whole wheat bread, I would recommend one of these:
Whole Grain Breads, by Reinhart.
The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book, updated 2003 edition, by Laurel Robertson.
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I get most of my cookbooks used on Amazon. I get Kindle editions too, when they are on sale.
Being a raw beginner, you are only asking for disaster by trying to design a recipe from scratch, or modifying someone else's recipe.
The people on this forum are so nice to take the time, thank you for that great info.
I do have the BBA, and I love it, I call it my bread bible. :)
Thank you all! Honestly, poolish still terrifies me?, but I really am passionately obsessed by my new bread-making hobby, and desperate to learn! (whether some knowledge is theory for now, or turns into practice!)
Don't be intimidated by a poolish, it is the simplest to do. On your next bake, you can just take 25% of the total flour an equal amount of water and a pinch of yeast. Mix it up in the evening. In the morning add it to your other ingredients and bake as normal. Always remember that you can hardly mess it up. Even if it doesn't come out the way you expect, it usually makes for some pretty good toast!
?@toast, it's exactly what we've been doing
Like any foreign language, it takes time to understand. Some of the terms mean the same thing but originate from a different country. The concepts are what you need to be able to understand. From understanding that, clarity will come in how to use the product.
Some concept tidbits:
Biga, poolish, sponge, levain are all forms of a source of yeast and all are forms of a "pre-ferment". If they are "built" over several feedings or over time, the yeast population is higher and you, generally, need less in the final mix or less time to bulk ferment the final dough.A starter/mother/chef/natural levain is sometimes stored in the refrigerator by someone who bakes less often and its yeast population is relatively low as it is refreshed less often and is easier to maintain. A small amount of this is used to "build" a yeast-rich levain for the bake. A starter maintained on a daily basis for someone who bakes often is already yeast rich as the yeast population is maintained at a high level and is ready to go( already a "levain".
More yeast present that is eating and active at an ideal warm temp means less time is needed for the bulk fermentation to be done.Many "hands" get the job done faster.
More sleepy, slow,cold yeast (as in a cold retard of the final dough in the refrigerator or a half-dead refrigerated starter used as the levain or even a bulk ferment with any yeast in a cold kitchen) means it takes longer to finish the bulk ferment.
So in developing your understanding of bread, remember the concepts behind it. Whatever a preferment is called, they all essentially do the same thing. Whatever the rest time is called after a dough is mixed (rest,autolyse,etc), it all accomplishes the same thing.
Also learn the names for the different "stages" of bread making. There are a few variations but generally they are:
Mix/knead (fully hydrates flour and particles and develops gluten/starch network), Bulk fermentation, Shape, Proof/Final proof,Bake. There can be added steps (preferment,autolyse, retarding,second rise, re-shaping,etc) but these are the very basic steps.
Have delicious fun and enjoy learning a new "language".
That's precious info! :)
I read Peter Reinhart's BBA back to back, so have many of the basics, and also from reading a lot on the internet.
But like any new language, there's a lot of recognizing a word and going "what did that mean again?" before it's acquired knowledge ?
I liked your reference to language, I spent the last few years learning Spanish (which is now an acquired thing), and keep saying I'll learn another language... never thought that language would be Bread though?
When I posted this, I really had no intention of trying it, but with your encouragements I have decided to give it a go, and my baby Biga is currently in the fridge for the night.
I used a trusted crusty bread repice that I always have success with, used 25% of the flour at 65% hydration with 2g of yeast, and calculated the quantities needed for the recipe for tomorrow.
First "mistake": Wanting to avoid wasting dough if it doesn't work out, I cut the recipe down to enough for 1 loaf... it's very difficult to knead 25% of such a small amount of dough by hand! ?
That's why I called it a baby Biga. Fingers crossed!
In case anyone has advice, comments, here are the steps I followed (especially those I'm unsure about).
- For hydration of final dough, I deducted total grams minus grams used in biga.
- Mixed flour/water for final dough, and while I'm at it tried out autolyse for 60 min. I kept a bit of water because I figured it would be difficult to incorporate salt/yeast evenly without it?
- added yeast to water, mixed then salt, and added this + biga to autolyse mix
- kneaded 2-3 min (I don't normally with this recipe but seemed necessary to mix it all? And did 2 stretch & fold at 10 min (this is normally a recipe that I fold twice, don't know why, just following original repice)
- Dough is proofing, normally needs 2 hours, curious to see how long it will take! :)