April 8, 2019 - 8:16am
delayed fermentation at room temperature
Im at a loss. I was talking to a french baker today who was trying to explain to me his process of baking. Essentially he uses a pre-industrial technique whereby he mixes dough the night before, does a few stretch and folds - leaves it ferment for 24 hours at room temperature, then shapes and bakes. Its an old technique used before fridges came along and Im wondering if anyone knows anything about this. It kind of sounds like a biga bread that @abelbreadgallery @ http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/56796/real-biga did previously. any ideas?
advice and help appreciated
Share
I do this all the time...overnight bulk fermentations at room temps with stretch and folds here and there the first 2-3 hours...or whenever. Shape the next day depending on dough ...then rise room temp or in frig. Depends on when I want to bake and how sour I might want to go.
SOOOOO it is not a new way of doing things...the baker is correct.
Mutant, you left out a biggie, temperature. Abel is fermenting much less time (17 hr) @ 63F (17C). What would you estimate your room temp?
If the temp is not cool enough, dough degradation will be an issue. At least it is with sourdough.
Dan
i know, temperature...thats what i was wondering about - im used to doing cold fermentation and have made the biga bread at a lower temperature (16 - 17C but the baker i was chatting too was talking about an old 19th century process (pre-electricity) in which the ferment was done over 24 hours at room temperature (i just dont know what his room temperature is). He said he mixes everything, including salt and sourdough in a big dough box, does a couple of stretch and folds and then leaves it. When it degrades he takes it out shapes it and bakes...sort of like the pain l'ancienne technique that reinhart uses (except that his is a fully mixed cold ferment)
im going to find out more about it and post it up....
But “When it degrades he takes it out shapes it and bakes...”. Once the dough degrades (shredds) it will be unable to contain the gas needed to lift the loaf.
I imagine that bakers of old (using the technique described) would have to alter the timing when the weather and temperature changed.
A bread that I bake frequently uses 2% prefermented flour. So, far a 1 kilo dough the levain consist of only 20g flour. It ferments @ 77F for 16-17 hours. Any longer and the dough will start turning to slop.
I’ve got an idea. You could make up 3 or 4 tiny doughs @ 4 hour intervals. The BF them in the same place so that the temp remains constant, then check them the next day for dough strength. Pick the best sample. Record the temp and ferment time and use that until the weather and temp change noticeably.
IMO, 12 hours sounds more workable, unless your ambient temp is very cool.
Dan
it makes no sense to me...i reguarly use 50% poolish over 12 hours, at a cool room temperature, using a pinch of ADY in 500g dough and thats at the outer limit....i have to grab him and see what hes up too - he actually went back to France, from here in Ireland to work with bakers who used this 19th century method...
Perhaps the chef meant something different that what we term as degraded dough.
For one thing...we assume "shape and bake" means he shapes it...then proofs it...then bakes it.
BUT...per some old time European bakers I knew back in the 70's...they oft times did not mean to shape and proof before baking like we would assume. They shaped...and put dough immediately into oven based on their recipe.
Just something I have come across in the past with working with bakers that were German or Polish and English 2nd language...their words didn't always mean what I thought they meant. A lot of technique gets lost sometimes in the telling cause they assume you know this or that and we assume they mean this or that with their words.
I was constantly confused and it was hard to communicate so I just had to watch it work. It rarely worked for me at home cause I didn't understand the process if all I got was a formula.
My guess at a vaguely sensible other meaning for "degrade" (besides "lose its structure") is "when it shows that it has risen to its absolute maximum, by just starting to fall back down". I have no idea if that could be correct.
Baking is one of a very few disciplines/arts that still have national and regional "schools" (both literally and figuratively). A German baker educated by Germans knows that "everyone knows" the basics as they are taught in Germany, and the same for an American taught by Americans, and they'll each get some surprises when "everyone knows..." turns out to be false.
A mystery I need to solve
curious what you can find out.. My first thought was exactly like Dan's about temperature. Then I also saw an interesting post recently about someone using a ridiculous small amount of inoculation and letting bulk ferment go at for very long at different temps...top of my head 6C and then warmer again towards the end...
It made me wonder whether this is done for taste? I assume yes...
I shall keep an eye out here what you find... Kat
p.s. There are some amazing post on IG with bakers using those wooden troughs...Amazing!
A search so - I should see this French baker in the school yard over next few days - what’s IG I’m intrigued
for Instagram...
I cannot find the link at the moment but there are some lovely posts from bakers using the traditional mixing in wooden troughs.I shall post links when I come across and you are interested?
I am handmixing at the moment and was really intrigued about the feasibility for larger amounts of dough but probably not realistic. Happy baking...Kat
it is boulangerie_maurice on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/boulangerie_maurice/
There are some amazing videos showing how he mixes dough...can't be beaten by a mixer! Amazing!
That is fantastic and that trough is essentially the same one they use in the Romanian video below - it’s a wonderful piece of kit; essentially stretching, folding and rolling from one side to the other using the shape of the trough to do sone of the work for you. Before I had a mixer I was mixing 10kg dough on a steel table every night and it was pretty hard however I think this trough might do the trick....a lot of work...and imagine all the great bacteria living in the wood...amazing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7jtmDeTun8&list=PLS_uvDjPhS0KLjckwQ3j2TmildQ2k2MV-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MKbBvCuUwI&list=PLS_uvDjPhS0KLjckwQ3j2TmildQ2k2MV-&index=18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOdcVFXGe98
fantastic - just looked through them - I love the old Transylvanian woman making the bread - that should put us all in our place...so much to learn...many thanks for those links