Some advice please?
Hi all,
I am hoping to get some tips if I may.
A while ago I obtained a set of 3 commercial bread tins complete with steel lid. I figured it would be nice to bake my own bread rather than use store bought all the time and I enjoy cooking, win win.
I seem to be having real trouble getting a loaf to turn out. I'm just looking to make a basic white bread sandwich loaf.
The tins are 900g tins and I have been having issues getting the bread to rise to fill the bread tin.
The recipe I used most recently, as I ready about the bread ratio was:
AP flour 650G
430g liquid - I used half/half water, milk
About 15g salt
2tsp instant yeast.
1TBS Honey.
And to this I added 2 tsp lemon juice.
The milk was warm but not hot when mixed with the flour. I mixed the milk, water, honey and yeast together and poured that in with the flour/salt mixture.
I am using a Kitchen aid mixer with paddle to bring the dough together and then dough hook for kneading. Once kneaded, the dough was still fairly sticky. Enough to stick easily to non floured fingers.
This would have made a dough weight of about 1kg.
After kneading I placed the dough in the bread pan and set this in to the microwave that I had just ran for 1 minute on high with glass of water in it. I was planning to let it rise just the once as I have had issues with double rising a loaf previously and not rising sufficiently on the second rise. I may have let it rise too much in the first rise.
I Left this in there for about 2 hours or so and the dough did rise up to about an inch from the top of the pan, but was very light, and any touching of the surface of the dough caused it to deflate. I figured it would deflate when put in to the oven, so threw out the dough.
This bread baking business is tricky starting out.
So any tips? Pointers where I am going wrong?
Questions.
If a dough rises too much and collapses, that indicates the gluten was not developed enough to hold the gases from the yeast and therefore it collapses? Not Kneaded enough maybe?
I assume this amount of dough in weight, would have the potential to fill the 900g loaf pan if all goes to plan?
First I'll talk about kneading. This is a 66% hydration dough. This is the Baker's Percentage and it is a fancy way of showing the percentage of ingredients in relation to the total weight of flour.
So 430g liquid / 650 g flour=.66 or 66% liquid. This is a level of moisture that should not be sticky. I would guess that the dough needs to be kneaded more either by hand or with the dough hook in the stand mixture. It should be kneaded until you can "pull" a windowpane. Look that up in the search box or google it and check images. Essentially, a dough is properly kneaded to windowpane if you can stretch a piece of dough between your fingers and it forms an almost see-thru "window". Oh, heck-a PICTURE is worth a thousand words.
Additionally, after a rough, first mix, let the dough sit for 10 minutes so the flour can soak up the moisture. Then mix to windowpane.
I'm not sure of why you add lemon juice. Flavor? Too sweet? Just eliminate honey.
I prefer adding a few tablespoons of neutral tasting oil for the softening and keeping qualities on a sandwich loaf.
If you are using a pullman pan ( a covered baking pan), look up pullman recipes.
There has been discussion on how much to fill pans. Try the search box with words like "How much dough" "pan capacity" "fill a pan"
Research "proof" "final proof" "finger poke test" "overproof". Sounds very overproofed. Learn to evaluate the dough as it rises-takes practice. You might want to practice on smaller batches or it will become quite costly. 2 hours sounds like it might be too long.
Throwing dough out? Most doughs can be salvaged. Briefly re-knead, re-shape, put in pan and now pay close attention to the dough as it rises. When it i ready, bake it. Don't let it double. Bake it when it either passes the finger poke test or is 3/4 doubled (almost doubled-requires knowing where pan was filled to before rising).
Experimentation is called for.
Thanks for the info.
I'm sure the problem is over complication of the process by myself. Too much reading.
I had read a wet loaf makes softer crumb so translated that to mean the dough could be more sticky. I am sure the issue I am facing is not enough kneading, meaning the gluten has not developed, so does not have the strength to hold the CO2 as the yeast does it's thing and the dough collapses.
Lemon juice was added as I read it gives the dough a better rise, since I was having trouble with the dough rising I put it in, only on the last time I made it though.
Honey for sweetness and to moisten the dough again for softer crumb, but also to feed the yeast.
I do have Pullman pans, but haven't used the lid as I don't mind the domed loaf.
I believe what I need to do is try this again, but with longer kneading to get it to the window pane stage. I believe from here it will rise sufficiently.
Give it a shot tonight.
Thanks again.
Don't add this for better rise, that for moistening the dough, and so on. That's a large part of the unwanted complications you need to get rid of.
If the yeast needed feeding, the recipe would say "here's how you feed the yeast". It doesn't say that, because "feeding the yeast" is a useless addition.
Take your recipe and follow it literally with no changes at all. See how it turns out.
Thanks David R.
I'm not using a recipe as such, just using the 66% hydration rule of thumb.
Plenty of recipes out there, most of them quote an amount of cups of flour which I find inaccurate. So going by weight seems to make sense and using the 66% hydration rule seems a fairly good idea, then just change the amount of flour up or down depending on the size loaf etc.
Ah, I understand. Sorry for the confusion.
is that a step was skipped in the original method. ..the bulk rise... the rise between mixing and shaping the loaf.
SOLUTION. After kneading the dough, instead of letting the dough rise in the bread pan, put it into a see thru container like a plastic box or straight sided bowl and let the volume double in the microwave. Then flip out the dough onto the countertop, deflate the dough and shape. Then put it into the bread pan for a second and final rise that is just short of double in volume. bake.
Of course if you are short on containers, you can do a bulk rise in a loaf pan or the mixing bowl but keep in mind you will be dumping it out and reshaping it again waiting for a final rise before baking. :)
Thanks mini, I was only letting it rise once as I seem to have trouble getting the second rise to actually rise, so was going for 1 rise bake to see how that went.
Had another go tonight. This time kept it simple.
Kept to the 66% hydration mix, added a little salt, 2tsp yeast, 550g flour, no sweetener, part milk part water for the liquid.
Mixed it just till it came together sit for 10.
Kneaded it for longer and it became smooth and elastic, could take a chunk and pull to window pane. I am sure it wasnt over or under kneaded.
Put it in greased bowl for first rise and put it in microwave that had heated water for 1 minute. It rose well and doubled in size, probably a bit more.
Took it out and shaped it by stretching it out to a rectangle shape, folded the sides in and then rolled it up to go in pan.
Had to go out so I put it in fridge with cling wrap covering it and about 40 minutes later when got home, checked it and water had gathered on the underside and was dripping on to the dough. I removed the glad wrap but left it in fridge for a while longer, which caused the dough to skin over.
It hadn't risen very much so I took it out, kneaded it for a bit, and set it back in tin to rise, this time on bench.
Again it didn't rise much, I baked it and the loaf did not spring in oven, probably filled about half the 900g tin.
The flour and water would be about 900g. The yeast says 2 tsp per 500g on the packet so I assume the yeast amount is ok.
Perhaps the initial rise was too much. And, I seem especially talented at ruining bread :-)
on that, as this post will attest! We are all stars of that particular play ?
Keep on baking,
Carole
Thanks Carole, I'm a stubborn bugger so I'll keep at it.
Last nights loaf turned out a bit rubbery, probably from the fridge treatment. Certainly more dense than my other loaves.
If one of the steps is not working (like the knocking it down and letting it rise again step - or any other), don't take it as a signal to skip that step. If one step doesn't work or doesn't happen, every step after it is compromised as well.
And "I'm stuck at Step X, I can't seem to get that one right" is a lot easier to fix, and a lot easier to give assistance on, than "Something is wrong with my bread, help me please".
And you are right of course, I kind of jump in to something with both feet and go all over the place trying to learn as much as I can and over complicate it. Sometimes as a starting out baker I guess you don't know enough about the nuances of bread baking to know what specifically to ask.
I should just stick to a basic loaf and keep baking just that recipe until I can get that right.
I'll try letting it do it's first rise in a sealed Tupperware container to let it double next to me in the lounge so I can watch it easily. Then go from there.
Good on the Tupperware. Bad on the sealed. ?
It's OK to cover it, including you can use the lid or a different cover, but just resting on top, not sealed.
Aha, Got it.
Tonights attempt went a little better, in that I ended it with a loaf of bread.
Recipe:
600g flour
66% hydration, half milk, half water.
1 Tsp salt
2 and a dash Tsp yeast - My yeast packet says 2 Tsp per 500g flour.
1 TBS sugar.
TLDR: Prob not kneaded enough as sticky, over proofed I believe, sunk when baked.
Combined the ingredients in the mixer and left sit for 15 minutes once it formed a shaggy looking mass.
Went to the dough hook and kneaded it for about 14 minutes on lower speeds, stopping it to check on it every few minutes. It remained sticky enough to stick to your fingers all the way through, but I could pull it to the window pane so stopped the kneading. In hindsight I probably should have continued until dough was no longer sticky at all and was very smooth.
Put the dough in to a tupperware container and marked it's level, gave the dough a brief mist with water and let it rise with the container lid resting on top, but not sealed.
It rose quickly to double the size in about 30 minutes. Turned it out on to a lightly floured table and knocked it back, stretched it out a bit rectangular, folded the sides back over and rolled it to about the width of the loaf pan. Put it in the pan. I boiled some water and set this in a baking tray on the bottom of my stove to steam, set the pan on a shelf about if with door closed to let it rise. Oven off of course.
It rose to about an inch below the top of the loaf tin, at which point I heated the oven and baked it with boiling water in a pan in the bottom for the steam and baked it a total of 30 minutes in the tin, turned it out and baked it for 5 minutes on the shelf to brown up the sides a bit.
The loaf sunk in the middle, so I believe this was over proofed, but probably due to being under kneaded, not giving the dough enough gluten structure to hold the CO2 as it proofed.
All in all, it's a step forward.
Pics below.
Rising
Erm, it's in there.
Looking over proofed?
Sunk, but baked.
First of all, the loaf tin is too big for the amount of dough. I've been suspicious of this from the start. Take your empty tin, place on the scales and fill with water. What is the weight? Can also fill with milliliter as well. Let us know. Could also give us the inside dimensions of the pan. W x L x H
Yes, the dough has risen too far in the container, looks more like tripled. Excellent guess. Not likely underkneaded. The dough box measurements are off. Fill with water to the first dotted line. Add the same amount of water to double the volume and then make another dotted line as a guide. That should help.
Now, isn't it nice to know it's an easy fix?
Thanks Mini,
I filled it with water and it came to 4kg.
I did realise the pan was quite large and would hold more than 900ml of water, but I was figuring the sticker saying it can take up to 900g of dough meant it was allowing for the proofing to fill the bread pan. Plus, general loaves of bread from the supermarket, (which I am trying to emulate size wise so my family can use the loaves as they normally do for school lunches etc) fits in to the bread tin nicely.
Those loaves have a weight of about 830g. I was figuring allowing for weight loss whilst baking of about 10-20% puts the pre bake dough size of about 900 - 950 grams, hence my 600g flour, 66% hydration attempts.
I had also read on here when looking at how much dough to fill the pan that a 60% dough weight was optimal. That didn't work so was trying the 100% dough weight, according to the sticker.
Not sure what you meant by fill with water to first dotted line as there are no dotted lines on the bread tin? Tupperware container had dotted lines for the amount of the dough so I could see when it had doubled.
Pan measures 26.5cm x 13cm x 12.5cm deep.
Thanks for your help on this Mini and all.
the plastic container (dough box) and also risen too high in the bread pan. I still think the "double" marks are too high and worth checking. The dough looks over double in the plastic container.
mwilson comment corrects me about the dough amount. I just learned something more about pinholes in wheat bread. :).
Hi knigt76.
So you're trying to duplicate commercial bread? I can help with that. I dedicated some time trying get that volume commercial loaves have. Good news, it is possible...
AP flour? What flour are you using exactly? You'll need very strong flour for this task.
You haven't kneaded enough yet! That picture with the dough risen up in the tin shows me that it is over-proved and you could knead more to attain more loft. The clue for me was the array of "pin holes" on the surface. A dough that has been kneaded to it's maximum extension won't show this effect, rather it will look smooth but slump slightly at the point of over-proofing.
Lemon juice is a source of ascorbic acid which is used to strengthen gluten. A dose at 1% should be enough if you choose to use it.
Are you machine or hand mixing / kneading?
Hey, Yeah the volume of the loaf is what I am aiming for.
AP flour is what I have been using, I thought it could have done with a bit more kneading My local supermarkets don't have strong flour that I have seen.
I'll keep the lemon juice out of it for now until I can get something a bit more reliable baked, sticking with a set recipe for the moment.
I am machine mixing with Kitchen aid, paddle until just come together then let it rest 15 minutes, kneading with dough hook. I stopped kneading on my last loaf after about 14 minutes out of fear of over kneading, could pull to the window pane, it was still a bit sticky though.
Could I increase the size of the dough to fill the pan better? 1kg flour, 660ml liquid, 1tbs sugar, 60g butter, 4tsp yeast. Yeast packet suggests 2 tsp per 500g flour.
Incidentally I did cook a loaf in this pan with Lauke crusty white bread, which is pre-mix bread, just add water and yeast, and it rose well out of the top of the pan. That was with I think 600g flour.
of water you'll need a dough weight of about 1/2 of that... that's a LOT of dough.
Try 1200 grams flour and 790 +/- grams of liquid. That should get you there.
hester
just the water or does it include the pan as well? Just to be sure. :)
you meant that for the original poster, right?
for the original poster to answer.
The photo of that little blob of rumpled dough in the bottom of the pan looks so lost down there.
you. Needs more dough in there.
No. It is not unusual for commercial loaves to attain about 5-6 times their volume of mixed dough.
I had such suspicions as you.
This tin looks awfully similar to the one I have. Measurements are close but mine holds ~3.3/3.5 Litres.
No problem producing an 800-850g loaf that pokes out the top.
https://staffoflife.wordpress.com/category/bakers-yeast/
That is some beautiful 100% whole wheat bread. I don’t ever remember seeing a nicer slice.
Do I understand correctly that this type of crumb requires 40 minutes in a KitchenAid type mixer?
Danny
I don't just aim to please, I aim to impress!
Seriously though I am bowled over. Very kind of you to say that.
Long time ago but I'm pretty sure this was made with Allinson's Very Strong Wholemeal Bread Flour. Excellent product!
EDIT: PS. 40 minutes is an estimate. Depends on many factors but the point is, most don't knead enough when volume is the goal.
Mission accomplished. ? That's some amazing bread.
I zeroed out the pan weight before tipping the water in, so should just be the water, filled up to the brim.
You must like some dense bread!!
1/3 is more appropriate in this context.
.
What is the flour? What protein content does it have? a picture? please divulge, can't make a lofty loaf out of poor flour!
14 minutes in a planetary mixer is nothing. It takes about 40 minutes in this type of mixer to reach the level of development needed to rise to heights you are looking for.
You could increase the dough mass but then it would be at the expense of volume and realistically the density you are looking for, that which is on a par with commercial loaves.
1kg of flour is ri-donk-ulous.
I'll have to check and get back to you, at work at the moment.
Density - I am looking for a light airy bread, not a very dense sponge like bread. Which I assume is what you mean by less flour and more development to let the dough proof to a higher rise.
and less overproofing?
Yes, less over proofing. I just baked a bread I am happy with. Just going to post the pics.
Ok tonight I thought I am going to bump up the amount of dough, and see how it goes.
I made up 1kg flour, 66% hydration 50/50 milk/water, 60g butter, 4tsp yeast, 1TBS sugar.
Mixed it in the kitchen aid but it was too much dough to knead in it so had to hand knead it on the bench. Pulled to window pane so let it 1st proof. Doubled, shaped it and put it in the pan. Let it rise to just the edge of the tin height.
In the pan.
Poke test passed so put it in oven with tray on bottom, boiled water put in it for steam, baked it 30 minutes, plus 5 more out of the bread tin.
Baked result. - Next to the tin for size comparison.
It's currently sitting and cooling, waiting the hour or so for it to cool before cutting it open to see how it really is.
But, overall it's a step forward.
Thanks again for all the tips and help everyone. It's appreciated.
cannot wait to see crumb shot. you should be very pleased.
hester
Here is the crumb shot.
Mouse hole son.
So clearly there is a bit of a mouse hole there, which goes through 2/3 of the bread length. What I did when I knocked it back was just gently knocked it back with my fingers, didn't punch it down and then stretched it out and folded it, rolled it up. Probably didn't get all of the air out of it and it must have gathered here for the hole?
Would that be the cause of this?
Also, it appears a small section at the bottom may not be cooked fully? How long should a loaf of this size bake for?
All good though, toad in a hole for breakfast. Delish.
Most loaves should be 190 - 205 Degrees F when well cooked
crumb looks great. So one hole wasn't punched down. big deal. Great loaf. nicely done
hester
Thanks Hester.
I'm not complaining but have to be honest with how it went, critical of myself to improve.
The loaf tasted great. Not much left of it now, but another one rising in its loaf pan right now.
Just to answer here for the flour I have been using. AP flour
10G protein per 100g
when you see a loaf this light. When you tip out the loaf and see a very pale bottom, you can quickly put it back naked on the hot oven rack to finish baking. Can put a foil tent over the top too to prevent more browning of the top. Next bake, lower the shelf to get more heat under the loaf.
One idea that might help is to do a preshape 15 minutes before the actual shaping of the loaf. The rest between to let the dough relax. If it seams relaxed enough, shape earlier.
IMG_1636.JPG
Thanks for that tip. What I did with that loaf, was bake it for too short a time I think, for the amount of dough, and then popped it out on to the cooling rack, put it back on to a roasting tray out of the tin for another 10 minutes.
This is my second loaf.
2nd loaf
Bottom of second loaf
For this loaf, baked it on the pizza stone for about 40 minutes, took it out and popped it on to the cooling rack, back in to the oven on a baking tray which was cool for another 15 minutes so 55 minutes in the oven total.
Short of putting the loaf directly on the baking stone to try to finish the bottom, I am not sure what I can do. This loaf I have not cut in to yet.
Just as an addition to this, my second loaf seems to have the same hole as the first. And the bottom inch or so is a bit more dense than the rest.
Could the hole be from where the bread that is properly cooked has separated from the part that isn't 100% cooked?
Thinking next time to give the bread 20 minutes in the tin to set the shape, then the rest on the pizza stone to help cook the bottom.
the crumb has lifted off the denser crumb or crumb has fallen into a dense mass at the bottom.
Why the stone? How thick is it and how long is it preheated?
Has the stone been in the oven during the whole thread?
Does the lower heating element work in the oven? What kind of oven is it?
Maybe a picture of the oven set up (oven door open, racks, stone, pan, etc.) might help. Also which oven settings are being used besides temp.? This may sound like a lot of questions but something is not making sense.
IMG_1637.JPG
Why the stone, to help cook the bottom of the bread I guess, it's such a large loaf, and again reading it is a good idea to cook on a baking stone.
My oven is a simple oven with just temp settings. Gas oven, set to 200C. Pre-heat for 15 minutes.
The bottom of the oven I have a baking tray that when I put the bread in, I poor boiled water in to it to make steam. The bread tin goes straight on to the stone and I've left it on there for about 30 minutes.
Take bread out of tin and put it back in on a cold baking tray set on to the stone.
Perhaps the steamed water which is directly beneath the stone, is cooling the bread base somewhat and not baking the base fully?
I am not sure exactly what your problem might be. The hole pictured is in nusual. But your stone should be preheated much longer. I preheat mine for an hour or more. The purpose of the stone is to absorb heat, and acts to maintain the heat in the oven after the door is opened and cold/cool dough is placed within. Your other option would be to remove the stone and use only the pan. That method is more conventional.
What is the make and model of your oven? You obviously have a heat problem.
Danny
update - I see you are using a pan. I don’t have much experience in this area.
The main reason for a stone is that it gets VERY hot and stays that way, cooking whatever it touches much faster than simple hot air would do.
You already know all about the difference between [being surrounded with hot air] and [being in contact with a hot object] - waving your hand inside a hot oven for 30 seconds is no problem, but touch that oven wall even for a fraction of a second and you're burned.
could be better and you may have to play around a bit. Try putting the steam tray on top, it seems to be blocking bottom heat. Then if using the stone, preheat the stone for an hour at 250° dropping the oven temp down to 220°C when loading the oven. I think all the heat was going into the stone and not the bread tin. The stone was absorbing the heat not giving it off.
Might also want to try a bake without the stone, steam tray on top. Add only enough water to boil and make steam for the first 10 minutes. Can't see steam but it is circulating, one cup of boiling water is usually enough. (Then again, you could forget about the steam pan and put the greased lid on the Pullman for the first half of the bake instead, removing the lid when the pan is rotated for a more rounded top.
A large loaf with 1kg flour can easily take an hour to bake. I think as your kneading skills improve and you change over to a higher protein AP or include bread flour, you can drop the flour weight in the recipe and shorten the baking times. Every time the oven is opened, add 5 minutes to the baking time for lost heat.
If you have no choices to raise the protein in the flour and have a big bag of it, there are other ways to improve the protein. If your family goes thru a loaf in one or two days, try this...
first drop back the flour to say 850, then break an egg white into your liquids to be included in the total, give it a good quick whisk with a fork before adding to the flour salt & yeast mix. You can add the yolk later if you like but because it is fat, add after the initial mixing and hydrating of the flour. I tend to save the yolk instead, adding later to French toast, scrambled eggs or fried eggs for a nice hot egg sandwich (tobasco, cheese, chives.)
Can also add overnight soaked drained fork smashed turtle beans. Half a cup dry beans does incredible things to make a soft crumb and help loft. Again, reduce the flour down to 700g or you may hit the top of the oven with this loaf. Include the dry bean weight w/ flour when figuring salt. Toss the smash into the dough from the beginning when mixing. The bread will look like chocolate chip bread. Fun. Also makes a great cinnamon swirl and/or raisin bread. :)
Thanks Mini. And everyone helping me get to grips with this bread baking stuff.
I will probably bake another loaf either tomorrow night or Tuesday afternoon.
I was thinking of cutting my dough size back to 900g flour, removing the stone and steam completely, and see how this goes. Heat oven with a steel baking tray in it, Bake in the tin on a rack for 30 minutes then pop it out and put it on the heated baking tray for another 30.
If I need to crisp up the crust I can let it cool right down, spray it was water all over and put it back in the oven for 10 or so minutes to set the crust. Which I have done once and it worked nicely.
I bought some bakers flour today that is 12.5% protein and was going to use this 50% mix with my 10%AP flour to increase the protein content slightly, or just do a bake with all bakers flour.
Not a great selection of flour at the local supermarkets here unfortunately. The local Costco (1H drive away) has strong white AP flour.
Thanks for the tips on raising the protein with the egg, or beans. I'll save that for a bit further down the track when I have a bit more skills with the process. And I don't want to change too many things all at once, change one thing, bake and see the difference, change another and see etc.
And with my wife and I, 3 kids school lunches my family goes through a loaf a day generally. But I don't expect I will be baking every loaf they eat. My goal would be to get baking down to twice a week, once Sunday maybe to get bread going for the week, and then maybe a Friday night bake for weekend breakfasts. Do my own hamburger buns etc.
Baked another loaf tonight. It's cooling so will not know how it went. I made a mistake with the oven temp and accidentally pre-heated it way too hot and didn't realise until 30 minutes in to the bake. Covered the top with foil but it got pretty cooked on top.
Crispy!
This one I took the steam pan out completely, and baking stone. Baked it on the oven shelf with baking tray pre-heated on try below. After 30m, tipped it out on to baking tray and baked it for another 15 minutes.
I'll cut in to it in the morning and see how I went.
Forgive me but you are really screwing up the "change one thing at a time" thing. I don't quite follow what's going on now. Lol!
Nice leopard spots. Bottom crust is getting darker. Make a picture of the very bottom!
Why put a pan under the bread pan? Did the bottom once burn?
Yeah I know, I figured I was well overcomplicating the oven process. So went back to basics with just the loaf tin on an oven rack.
I was anticipating tipping the loaf out of the tin at the 30 minute mark and putting it back in to the oven for another 30 minutes to finish. I didn't want to put the loaf straight on to the oven rack as it's a heavy loaf and the bottom could be damaged by the rack, so I had a baking tray in the oven that was in there the whole cooking time so the loaf was put on to a hot surface still. So the pan wasn't under the bread pan at any time, just under the bread at the 30m mark.
I will take a pic of the bottom, I cut this loaf this morning and it was cooked better through, no dense section at the bottom and so far no holes in it.
Please send us a crumb shot. Pictures are a great help.
Be careful when removing the loaf from the pan. If the loaf hasn’t setup enough you will dent it when handling. I know because I did exactly that.
If you think the large pan is working against you, you could remove the loaf, invert the pan, then place the loaf on top. When baking with a loaf pan, it is generally not necessary to use a baking sheet. I am wondering if the baking sheet is not sheilding the radiant heat. Not Sure, just a thought.
Dan
Hey thanks for that great suggestion. I'll do that next time, invert the pan. So much to learn.
I didn't get time to cut in to the loaf last night as it finished baking at 11pm. So made lunch with it in morning.
The bottom 1/2 of loaf was definitely more compressed crumb than top half which was better. I will post crumb shot this afternoon.
I'm thinking I need to get my dough weight down and get the loaf rising closer to its peak rise. I think this will allow the dough to achieve a looser crumb structure.
Tasted good though.
Here you go, what do you think? Crumby? Sorry, couldn't resist.
Crumb Shot
Pic of the bottom. Certainly improved I think.
I'm getting there.
Bottom
I think you should go with leaving the dough in the pan for the entire bake. Wait for the end tipping out to cool motion to check the bottom before returning "naked to the rack" if it needs it. The loaf will be more stable and less apt to dent or fold and less rack marks too if needs to bake longer. The gray colored pan should bake up nicely all by itself. :)
No pans or anything under the loaf pan. If adding a steam pan (after this bake) try another loaf pan on the same shelf as the bread pan. The empty pan can be heated up with the oven and hot water can be poured into it. Remove steam pan after initial oven spring and gently rotate the bread pan 180° into center of oven for a more even bake.
Check the position of the oven rack. In the cold oven place the rack with the empty bread pan on it into the oven so that the top of the pan is dead center in the oven. If that isn't possible better to have the rim slightly under dead center. The top of the finished bread will then determine dead center. This is a basic starting position and depending on how the crust browns, can go up or down. Gas ovens tend to be too hot on the bottom but I don't yet see this happening with the loaves.
Love your enthusiasm to bake often and find solutions. Sometimes it can get frustrating but the baked bread aroma and fresh bread is just sooooo good! Well worth it!
Oh, forgot one little detail that may make a big difference. While the dough is rising in the bread pan, pay attention to what the pan is standing on. Is it a warm counter top or a cold one? Any cool surface could be slowing down the rising dough in the bottom of the pan. The dough should have the same temperature all around the loaf while proofing.
Thanks again for the tips, hmm, the pan just sits on the kitchen bench for rising, not sure if the surface of the bench is any cooler than the air around the kitchen.
I could sit it on a cloth or something.
I will probably bake another loaf tomorrow or maybe the next day. And yes, I love the smell of the bread baking.
The loaf I baked tonight I am happy with. The first one I've baked that I can say that for really. Cooked it in 40 minutes in the pan, and then 10 sitting directly on the rack.
Recipe I used was a 100gm sponge starter, 700g flour, 60% hydration milk/water, 2tbs honey, 2 tsp salt, 2 tsp yeast, 1 egg's white cracked in it.
I let it bulk ferment twice, I was going to do once, but had to go out so knocked it back, covered and let rise again, was out longer than expected and when came back it was over proofed. Knocked it back again, shaped it and let it rest, re-shaped it again and let it rise in pan.
Loaf came out with a nice soft crumb, soft crust which I don't mind for sandwich bread. For me this one is home run. Really happy.
Pics:
Loaf
Base
Crumb
Storage. I was going to look at one of those expandable containers with the valve but when fully extended, there is a gap of air between one piece and the other of a good half centimetre so I can't see what these do other than a glorified tupperware container.
So what I did was buy a plastic container big enough, drilled a few holes in the top to let out any moisture and fight mould buildup, and popped the bread in it.
My Storage solution. - Note, the plastic is milky, thats not moisture on the inside of the box or anything.
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