Novice baker has questions especially RE "No-knead" bread
1-26-19
1. I have seen many recipes recently for no-knead bread, especially recipes ordinarily considered in the category of artisan bread baking. Forgive this novice if this question seems exceedingly naïve: Apart from saving the labor of kneading by hand, can anyone tell me if there is any other claim made, theoretical or practical, for a superior outcome with "no-knead" recipes as compared with recipes made with conventional kneading methods?
I suspect the answer is No, but of course I could be wrong. Leaving aside individual/anecdotal claims, is there any general consensus in the baking community, amateur and/or professional, for superior results with no-knead recipes?
If the answer to these first questions is No, I'm puzzled: Most amateur bakers with any serious interest in this hobby own a stand mixer. If one owns a decent stand mixer, no claim can be made about even saving the labor of kneading. I have made a number of no-knead recipes and "no-knead" certainly is not equivalent to "no-labor." No-knead recipes involve substantial and often strenuous labor in stirring and mixing wet ingredients, although admittedly not for nearly as long as kneading-by-hand methods. I'll concede that no-knead is less work, but not no work.
Am I missing anything else? Why would anyone with a stand mixer use a no-knead recipe? My current practice in fact is to use the ingredients and fermenting/shaping/baking instructions of many no-knead recipes, but to knead the bread in a stand mixer. Results are fine.
2. My second question is specific to outcomes: I typically see a recipe on a web site or in a cookbook for artisan bread picturing an attractive loaf intact and usually also a photograph of its cut surface. Almost always the cut surface of artisan bread in these displays features a Swiss cheese-like appearance of multiple large and small holes resulting in a highly aerated and light loaf. That's not what I'm getting, no matter how closely I think I have followed the recipe. My typical result is a dense loaf with little or no aeration and few/no areas of cavitation within it, a little like what one would expect taking a photo of a cross-section of the White Pages. I have no complaints about the taste of such bread, but it's my sense that I should be able to reproduce the results I see in the photographs. What am I doing wrong? What is the absence of this Swiss cheese pattern in the substance of the bread a symptom of?
Many thanks in advance for comments from this group.
--g0g0
with a serious interest (4 loaves this week) who doesn't own (or want to own) a stand mixer. I have way too many kitchen devices already!
Bottom line. My bread making process evolved over time to suit me. Yours will too. There are no hard and fast rules. Just do what suits your life.
I started bread making in earnest about 15 years ago with the Jim Lahey method. From that I dabbled with sourdough instead of having to purchase commercial yeast. I loved the texture and flavor but I found the free-form loaves were difficult to slice for sandwiches and toast so I began baking in cast iron loaf pans. Over time and choice I perfected a recipe that suited me with a combination of whole wheat and AP flours, salt and my sourdough starter. Then I experimented with kneading a bit because it was satisfying to feel the bread come alive in my hands.
Now, on average I bake two loaves every 10 days. My sourdough starter is 13 years old and going strong. I haven't bought a store-made bread in over a decade. Bread baking has become routine.
I find that dough that is either under mixed or prepared no-knead taste better. Noticably so. It may be due to oxidation, but not sure about that.
Holes in crumb - At this time there is a large hole (open crumb) craze. Many bakers, including myself on occasion, strive to produce open crumb. It is quite an achievement and considered a skilled accomplishment. IMO, a crumb that is airy and light is a standard that most if not all serious bakers insist upon. The size of the holes are a matter of personal preference. My favorite “eating” bread has a crumb that looks much like a honey comb. It does a better job of holding the condiments.
Dan
... different variables in what gives an open crumb, but certainly one of them is the amount and type of work (stirring, kneading, etc) that the dough gets. Over-working and under-working both give unwanted results.
1) You can achieve similar results with a hand mixed no knead or machine mixing process providing you use the machine in the right way. However, if you use a machine and mix for a long time you will oxidize your dough which has a bleaching effect on the pigment of the flour and a tightening effect on the crumb structure of the bread. If you look at the crumb of a gently mixed bread using only white flour you will notice it has a creamy slightly yellow color in comparison to say the super white appearance of something like wonder bread. This has to do with the oxidation caused by an intensive mixing process. You can use a machine mixer and do what bakers refer to as an intermediate mix or slow mix process and achieve more or less the same results as you would by hand mixing. A dough that in intensively mixed has already achieved full gluten development so bulk fermentation time if there is any at all isn't being used to finish developing the gluten structure where as a dough that is mixed using the intermediate or slow mix method will require fermentation and folds to achieve proper development of the gluten. Obviously this a is a very cursory understanding of the mixing process and much more could be said about what is happening during mixing and which type of mix is best depending on the desired results...
As a professional baker I find that in practice hand mixing is simply not practical for the quantity of bread being made and the intensity of the labor that would be involved (Imagine trying to mix a 250 pound flour batch of baguette dough by hand). Beyond that when hand mixing large masses of dough there is certainly the possibility of inconsistent results (uneven salt distribution for example). I think hand mixing is an attractive method for home bakers interested in a certain style of bread because they can focus their bread budget on other equipment (couches, lame, cloche, banneton etc.) instead of a mixer if they don't have one already.
I have 2 kitchen-aids and a 20 quart Hobart but when I make certain doughs I still hand mix just because I can make less of a mess. I have a hand mixed pizza dough formula that I made up a few months back fermenting in the other room currently but when I had a group of friends over a month ago and made 10 pizza I used the same formula and used the Hobart and achieved nearly identical results by mixing on speed 1 for a very short period of time and doing subsequent folds to finish the development of the dough throughout the fermentation.
2) achieving an open crumb structure is a topic that people have dedicated a lot of time explaining and there is no way I'm going to do the topic justice in a forum post. I'll just say that ingredient choice, hydration, mixing, fermentation, and handling of the dough all play in to achieving that result. Without knowing more about your process I can't give you advice on how to get a better result. It's not as though there is some catch all advice that will instantly have you achieving open crumb structure. If you post pictures and a detailed account of what you are doing there are plenty of people around here that can guide you to achieving the results you desire!
1-27-19
PEOPLE:
This has been my first posting at this web site, as both a novice baker and a new member. I appreciate the promptness, friendliness and sympathetic nature of the replies I have received.
But to be honest I'm a little disappointed: About the issue of no-knead bread-- I can see that is a question that allows for many subjective responses; consensus may not be fairly expected. OK; put that issue aside.
But as for the issue of getting homemade bread to be well-aerated and full of holes, which seems to be something of a Holy Grail, a point of pride nowadays...All that I have read here so far is language to the effect that many factors go into determining this result. No one can offer more specific advice on how to achieve this? No advice on what to do and what not to do in order to avoid loaves characterized by dense, un-aerated bread? I'll take "No" for an answer if the consensus from this group is that "No" specific advice is reliably accurate. But please don't be silent.
Many of us endeavor to bake bread with open crumb. Trevor Wilson has published a E-book to address this in great detail. If you are very serious about Open Crumb, this is a definitive resource. https://trevorjwilson.selz.com/item/open-crumb-mastery-for-the-intermediate-sourdough-baker-1-1
Dan
We don't even know what formula you are using, what flour you are using, what your current mixing process is, how your dough looks an feels, what baking method you are using. So without more information from your end it is not likely that anyone can help you. You need to help us help you.
Here is some general advice on open crumbed bread but without knowing what you're doing it's hard to say why you aren't achieving it:
1) Use quality flour. As far as what is easily attainable for most people King Aurthur is a good choice. As a base line for flat breads King Aurthur all purpose flour can make lovely baguettes, ciabattas and focaccias. For high hydration sourdough the King Aurthur bread flour can do a good job. Are there other flours that some people prefer? Yes. Do some people swear by fresh milled flour? Yes. But at bare minimum make sure you are using quality flour
2) Hydration. There is a relationship between the amount of water in the bread and the open crumb structure. Higher hydration will typically achieve a more open crumb structure. You can achieve open crumb in lower hydration breads but generally speaking a higher hydration dough will yield a more open crumb if all other factors are similar.
3) Mixing. Do not over mix your dough. Over mixing your dough will tighten the crumb structure and make it more homogeneous. As a general rule do not mix to full gluten development, rather develop dough structure through fermentation and gentle folding. Also, use an autolyse to develop gluten. Autolyse is great technique that is used to develop gluten without the negative effects of oxidation caused by over mixing.
4) Practice your hand skills. Iron fist, velvet glove. Sometimes you need your actions to be very impactful but with a lightness and deftness of touch. If you beat up your dough while shaping it you can destroy the work you have done through fermentation.
5) Bake in a screaming hot oven with plenty of steam. I prefer using a cloche for home baking as it eliminates the need for trying to produce steam in a home oven. Temperatures and baking times vary depending on specific product.
There is some general advice but if you want specific advice that is more likely to help you then you need to provide us with more details about your baking process.
1-28-19
FueledByCoffee (and multiple others):
Thanks for the detailed responses. Please believe that I will read all of them and I will definitely visit the links and sites that anyone recommends to me. One has to trust the judgment of those more experienced about this--the online resources available are overwhelming.
1. I was as a rule using King Arthur-- either A-P or Bread flour, with occasional forays with Gold Medal flour, although I have read comments (elsewhere and not recently) by more than one experienced baker that he found that the use of the "better" (i. e., more costly) brands of flour made little difference to his results. I would have to say that I have obtained comparable results from King Arthur, Gold Medal, Robin Hood, and Pillsbury flours, and even on a few occasions from the (very economical) unbleached flour one can find in large weights at Costco. When I say "comparable results" I mean comparably unsatisfactory-- the bread is certainly edible but not well-aerated. I have no experience baking with brands that are one or two steps up from King Arthur in price, e. g., Bob's Red Mill, Hudson, Hodgson, Arrow and others sold at larger supermarkets with diverse customer groups. But most comments I read agree with yours-- don't expect superior results from inferior flour.
2. My dense loaves seem to occur whether I am using white unbleached flour only, or when the recipe calls for a mixture of white flour with some whole wheat or some rye. No experience with more exotic flours.
3. I have for a while wondered whether the issue of hydration may be a big part of the problem, because I find that wetter dough is far messier and more difficult to handle in all recipes and in all phases of baking. I think I tend to add only enough fluid that the dough will only just manage to clean the bowl of my stand mixer during kneading. The feel of the dough is not dry or friable or tacky, but it's never so sticky that it cannot be handled readily without much adhering to hands, utensils, aprons, etc. YES-- I think if I followed the recipes I see more faithfully, I would often have dough far more troublesome to handle than I currently do. And you think under hydration might be contributing to the problem?
4. When you say "overmixing" I hope you mean "over kneading." I may be guilty of that also. I tend to mix all dry ingredients as thoroughly as possible by handheld utensils and/or by spinning the dough hook through dry ingredients for a minute or two before adding any fluids. I'm assuming one cannot MIX dry ingredients too thoroughly. I then add fluid and knead until the point mentioned above-- the dough just cleans the bowl and all dry ingredients are thoroughly incorporated with no dry spots remaining. This is usually a matter of several minutes of kneading, during the last few minutes of which water might be added by amounts of no more than a couple of teaspoons at a time and kneaded in with the results observed. Wrong, you think? A process prone to injure developing structure in the bread? The damage could occur that early, before the dough has been allowed to rest after kneading? Most interesting.
5. Not sure this is relevant: I almost never bother to proof yeast by dissolving it in water and adding that solution to dry ingredients. I almost without fail add yeast as one of the dry ingredients to all the others, and add water/fluid afterwards to that.
6. I allow the first rising of most doughs to occur in a covered bowl inside a microwave oven in which the power was run in an empty compartment for three or four minutes to generate warmth before the dough bowl is placed within.
7. Your comment on hand skills and advising gentleness in handling the dough is also interesting to anyone who has read the instructions on punching down dough in so many textbooks, or watched enough youtube videos which show experienced bakers repeatedly slapping down balls of dough forcefully onto work surfaces from heights of a foot or much more....
I could add more details than this, depending on specific recipes, but what I have described so far is true for most of the yeast bread baking I do.
Thanks for your willingness to hear this out.
--g0g0
I'm not going to sit here and respond point by point because there is a lot there and most of it is general enough that it's not worth commenting on. If you truly want help make a forum post that details your process with some nice pictures and I (and I'm sure many others) would be happy to provide assistance and support. I just made this post http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/59053/basic-white-sourdough that details my basic white sourdough process. You can see pictures of my dough at different stages...
Literal punching down of a dough is a pretty antiquated technique. I've seen it done in yeasted dough, like french rolls or something, but never in high quality artisan bread where a open crumb structure is desired. As a professional baker myself there are certain breads where being heavy handed and slamming down the dough doesn't really make any difference but there are others where it does. There are a lot of professional bakers out there that know less about making quality artisan bread than some of the home bakers on this site. Seriously.
I would assume your problems correlate with points 3 4 and 7. Hydration, mixing, and hand skills. I know that is pretty broad but if you truly get those things right then you should achieve the results you are looking for. Right off the bat your description of your dough screams of not having enough liquid. If you are cleaning your bowl with that little agitation and the dough barely wants to stick to your hands then you probably don't have enough water. If you look at the link of my sourdough bread you'll see the picture coming off my mixer where i am stretching a gluten window. If you look at that picture carefully you'll notice i dipped my hands in water before stretching that window...if i didn't that dough would have stuck all over my hands and been a pain. Knowing how to handle wet dough is a hand skill that takes time to develop. Honestly from your description it almost sounds like your bread is under hydrated and under mixed. Without a real thorough understanding of what you are doing I can't be of more help. Please help us help you!
1-31-19
Fueled By Coffee:
Thanks so much for the comments. Obviously I have homework to do, both reading and hands-on. So, in your next-to-last line above you feel "...your bread is under hydrated and under mixed..."
I think this group's insistence on seeing visual evidence before making highly specific recommendations is reasonable. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to make decent videos of the work I do. Photographs would be possible but of course less informative. I will try to follow advice in some of the literature you have referred me to and see what happens.
This is an interesting group. The comments I have read elsewhere in response to other questions have been intriguing. I have enjoyed reading about some things I will likely never attempt to bake, and some issues I probably will never deal with.
g0g0
I say under mixed and under hydrated because you make it sound like you are only mixing for a few minutes with no autolyse and cleaning your bowl. In order to clean the bowl that quickly you would have to have a pretty low hydration, and if you are stopping shortly after the bowl is clean then you probably aren't achieving much gluten development. Are you using a scale to weigh your ingredients or are you going by volume? Without detailed information it is hard to address the issues but from what you are saying I would be surprised if you were any more than 58-60% hydration. Pictures are great and very much encouraged! Would love to be of more help.