Got the Mill and the Book... BUT WHICH GRAINS DO I USE?
Hello all,
i have recently purchased Chad Robertson’s Tartine No.3 along with a brand new nutrimill grain mill. I’ve gotten pretty good at the original Tartine country loaf and now I want to really experiment with different grains and flavors to find a perfect loaf of my own (epecially before I bring it to the firehouse). I’ve read T3 cover to cover but I still have some questions before I start buying out amazon.
1) when recipes call for high extraction wheat flour, WHICH WHEAT BERRIES AM I SUPPOSED TO USE? Red? White?
2) When recipes call for whole grain wheat flour, does that mean red wheat berries? He specifics white whole wheat flour (which I assume is from white wheat berries) as a separate ingredient so I figured just whole wheat meant red?
3) am I right to assume that whenever I see “whole grain” it means mill the berries and don’t sift off Any bran/germ?
4) finally, I’m hoping to achieve that perfect loaf with a rich buttery aerated crumb that has that distinctly sweet finish. If anyone has any awesome grain combinations that have worked for them in the past, or if you know which grains are best suited for the loaf described, I’d be greatly appreciative!
First, congrats on the mill, I am sure you will love the taste of your bread.
Generally, unless the book expressly says otherwise, it is rare to find recipes in a book for home milling. The Bread Book by Thom Leonard is geared towards that, though there are not many recipes. I haven't read it yet, but Ashley Becker also has a book on home milling and baking bread. From her videos, she usually adds sugar or honey, and I am not a big fan, so I haven't purchased her book.
When a book says whole wheat, they typically mean red whole wheat flour that you buy from a store. For those of us that home mill, as I understand it, we can use red winter wheat and white winter wheat interchangeably in terms of strength and performance, though the red will have a stronger, some say grassier, taste. Often, though, when you buy red berries, they are red spring wheat, and so will behave a little differently than winter white berries , and will have a higher protein count than red winter wheat or white winter wheat.
Whole grain is often used to refer to whole wheat. Some that home mill sift - and refer to different percentages of extraction. Some sift, then through the sifted back in later on in the process, and some of us don't sift at all.
In terms of great taste, you will get that from milling fresh ( store any excess in the freezer or fridge) If you like the neutral taste of AP flour, you will be happier with winter white. If you like a more hearty taste from the flour, red spring berries may be more to your liking. For bread, I started with mostly red, then switched over to sourdough, and found I really like the tang and so I changed over to winter white. When I was still making yeast based breads, some liked 100% red, some liked a mix of 60% red 40% white, and others liked 40% red, 60% white - it is really up to you and your tasters.
My best suggestion, is keep lots of notes. There is very little in the way of well researched info on baking with home milled wheat, so if you keep good notes of what you try, and how it turns out, that will be a great help. I have been playing with the same recipe for several months - it has only 4 ingredients, and I have kept the proportions nearly identical, but I get very different results depending on the exact process I use.
Wow wow wow! What great information. You have been so incredibly helpful. I continued to research after I posted this forum and much of what I found echoes your words. You’ve obviously got this thing well in hand! I’ll be sure to note your guidance in my rapidly expanding notebook. I look forward to tasting the fresh milled difference.
Thank you very much!
Cheers!
Amen, Brother Barry. It has been my experience that there are three major differences for home milled flour compared to store bought.
As a general rule hydration will be different. You'll need more liquid for freshly milled flour.
You'll find much more variation between different lots and types of grain and the flours they produce than you'll find with commercial flour. This makes sense when you consider that large commercial mills have technical resources that allow them to standardize their output.
The flavor and nutrition is more than adequate compensation for any frustration you encounter when you start your 'education' about home milling.
Good luck!
Right! I generally do my sourdough at 85% hydration so I’m interested to see how freshly milled flours soak up the water More-so. I can make a loaf of bread but upping hydration into the 90’s makes my novice hands weary. I’m starting to see more and more how the first few loaves will truly be trial runs. I’m also getting into ancient grains and sprouted grains which will alter hydration levels further. The things we do for a good loaf of bread...
Thank you for the information!
Let us know how you progress, and any details will be appreciated. While you are starting on your journey now, they may be some who start in a few months, and they may be helped by your successes, and your failures. Barry.
That is, 85% hydration for 100% AP will not be the same "wetness" as the same hydration for a 100% bread flour or 100% whole wheat (or anywhere in between) loaf. I recently did 50% red fife, 50% AP loaf that was 84% hydration. I normally do about 80% hydration for an 80/20 AP/hard red winter wheat loaf, but the higher whole grain dough begged for more water to get to the similar consistency that I'm used to.
Definitely start with the hydration you're comfortable with, and mix in more water when you incorporate the salt or leaven (or both) using your hands, eyes, judgement, etc.
Ok so Here it is. I tried a Bourdan and Kamut 60% recipe out of T3. After the flavor, the ship starts to sink.
The recipes were as follows:
Bourdan Wheat:
High Ex Wheat: 250g
Whole Wheat: 125g
White Whole Wheat: 125g
Wheat Germ: 35g
Water: 425g (85%)
Leaven: 75g
Salt: 13g
Kamut:
High Ex Wheat: 100g
Whole Kamut: 300g
Bread Flour: 100g
Wheat Germ: 35g
Water: 425g (85%)
Leaven: 75g
Salt: 13g
So I tried to mill some fresh high ex flour and elected to use hard red berries. I figured since I needed 350g total between both loaves, that I better just mill it all at once. I figured that since I was gonna be sifting off some weight in bran that I would have to mill more than exactly 350g. Through some simple calculation I figured that I would need to mill 412g to achieve 350g of high ex flour after sifting (412 x .85 = 350). So I milled, and I sifted, and when it was all said and done, I had about 400g of sifted flour with the remainder in bran sitting in the strainer above. I just used that flour as my high ex. After the fact, its clear that I sifted in too much bran, thus making my “high ex” flour more like a whole wheat flour. You can see where the train is about to derail.
I autolysed both doughs with just the water and flour mixed (no leaven, no salt). After hour 1 of 4, I noticed that my wheat dough had the consistency of chilled cookie dough. My Kamut, though slightly less stiff, wasn’t much better. Basically, as everyone said on this blog, whole wheat and fresh milled flour can take A LOT more liquid. I upped my wheat to 100% hydration and my Kamut to 95%…. AND STILL THEY WERE ON THE STIFFER SIDE. I had nothing of the silky elastic texture I get with commercial dough. But what the hell, better just keep going.
After autolyse, I folded in my leaven and mixed in the salt. During the 4 hour bulk ferment, I noticed minimal change in texture. The Kamut became slightly more elastic as a bit more gluten developed (From the bread flour?) But by the end, my wheat loaf was so stiff that it would slide back to its original shape as I made my folds. I noted some bubble activity in both loaves but they would pop whenever I made folds. Basically, the dough was not nearly to the elastic gluten development necessary to achieve light airy open crumb.
Pressing on, Bench for 30 and into the baskets overnight.
Baked.
Wheat had minimal to no oven spring at all. Kamut was SLIGHTLY better. The aromas were quite good and the flavor itself was clearly better (due to the fresh milled flour). But the rest was mehhh. The crumb was so tight it resembled that of a store bought pumpernickel. Almost no bubbles at all and the loaf itself was so dense that I thought it had gained weight in the oven! Overall, I attribute this failure to the incorrectly measured high Ex flour and the lack of necessary hydration to develop that “window”.
If anyone has guidance on how to properly create high Ex flour at 85% (and from which berries to best mill it), Id appreciate it. Also, If I use hard red for the high ex, should I NOT use the same berries to make the whole wheat? Finally, does it make sense to change quantities and substitute with more bread flour to ensure a good oven spring and open crumb?
I’d invite people over for some bread… but I believe croutons and door stops are in my near future with this batch.
You got good flavor and optimal nutrition. Your only disappointment was an aesthetic one. Two outta three ain't bad especially when they're the really important ones. Just keep pluggin' away at it. I use hard red and hard white or a mix of the two for all my whole wheat (I don't extract). On the bright side sculptors, painters, even potters suffer aesthetic disappointments. For bakers the biggest difference is being able to eat their disappointments with no real long term effects on their health. Try to stay calm - remember Van Goh ended up in an asylum for a while and Toulouse Lautrec - well he had plenty of 'short comings'.
Thanks a for the words. When you make your wheat loaves with red and white, do you have any high gluten or bread flour to help with structure and elasticity? It just 100% whole wheat?
I used to use KA bread flour as 'training wheels' but it's out of the picture now. There's a bit of difference between our objectives. I'm trying to create a sandwich loaf so the form and 'holiness' of my ideal loaf is very different from your objectives. The light slowly dawned for me. I learned - brick by brick as it were - that it took more hydration and more kneading to develop a dough that would give me what I wanted. Both of the wheats I'm using now have enough protein to develop the structure and texture I'm looking for if I give them the moisture and the kneading that they need (no pun intended - and an unintended pun by me is very rare). I haven't pursued the open crumb structure you are looking for because I want the jam or mustard or butter to stay between the slices - 'a place for everything and everything in its place' as it were. It's my inexpert opinion that the bran and the germ in fresh flour offer some obstacles to the open crumb you're looking for but there's no reason to try to keep them 'out of the picture'. And there are some very good reasons to learn to work with them. Many of the techniques espoused by artisanal bakers seem, to me, to have been developed for working with commercial flours. Perhaps they only vaguely relate to fresh milled flours. Discovering the extent of that relationship is the adventure. "Endeavor to persevere" (I'll even steal quotes when it suits my purposes).
You talk about sifting the products of your mill, but you don't mention what mesh size sieve you are using. You really need to be using a sieve with a defined mesh aperture to successfully produce high extraction flour, not just a kitchen sieve.
I would try a #40 or #50 mesh sieve; they don't have to be fancy or expensive ones.
You may yet need to increase the proportion of bread flour in your recipes to avoid bricks.
Lance
It had never even occurred to me that anspwcific strainer would be appropriate. Just bought a 50 and a 60 on amazon. I’m sure that will cut down the bran that bleeds through on my generic kitchen strainer. Also, hopefully, with the correct quantity of bran and germ in my dough, a better oven spring will happen. But I do feel more comfortable bumping up the bread flour ratio, at least until I get the hang of things. Thanks a bunch!
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Just wanted to chime in to agree with Justanoldguy. While the photos on FL can be awe inspiring, in the end, we slice it up and eat it. I look at four factors - how good is it for you, how does it taste, and how does it feel in your mouth , and how does it look, and I consider them in that order. It may look great, but if it is 100% white flour, it is basically just sugar ( so not very good for you ), and I find that most white flour bread has an overly sugary taste, no where near as good as fresh milled wheat). As to mouth feel, if when you lift up a loaf that feels dense for its size, that usually is a negative, and won't be as pleasant to eat, though the last photo shows a bread that looks like it would feel airy, not like a brick. While it might be nice in some cases to get a very holely loaf, I don't want to compromise on the first three, just for looks.
Turning to hydration, I don't find that I need a ton more hydration, though generally, the only way I can determine hydration is to make test loaves, increasing the hydration a bit each time. When you go far too high, and you bake in a tin or pan, it is easy to see because the loaf will have a concave top after it comes out of the oven, because it the weight of the extra moisture is too much. These photos show it pretty clearly http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/37117/collapse-loaf-top%C2%A0
As to oven spring, with whole wheat , you really have to nail the timing ( or degree of final proofing ) to get good oven spring. I should have taken a photo of the bread I made yesterday, I ended up putting it in just a tad early, but got a fairly good increase in height as it baked. If the loaf seemed larger when you put it in the oven that when you took it out, it could be overproofed, though I am pretty bad at telling that from a crumb shot. BTW, I think the loaves look great, very artistic scoring.
As you can see Kimmer2, everyone has there own take on what type of bread to make. The 100% home-milled, whole grain variety has its devotees and I respect those devotees and the great flavour that their bread will have.
However, you will be fighting gravity all the time with this kind of formulation. I would suggest starting with a decent proportion of roller milled white flour in the mix initially and if you want to, slowly increase the proportion of home milled flour as you grow more confident in using it.
Also, please be aware that a home mill is a great tool, but an imperfect one - it does not separate the bran cleanly into large flakes like a full size stone mill. You can improve matters by tempering and double pass milling, but life can be too short....
Lance