When to score whole wheat loaf - right after shaping?
In a previous post, Charbono referred to the SFBI article linked here SFBI.
In reading it, I came across this tidbit that I don't think I have ever seen before.
When a high proportion of whole wheat flour is involved in the formula (60% and up) it is better to score the bread right after shaping. The cuts will keep better definition but, more importantly, the dough will be scored when it still has good strength. Scoring the loaves after the final proof could trigger a collapsing of the dough due to its fragile gluten structure
Even though I have been baking 100% whole wheat ( home milled ) for years, and have read a fair amount about baking with whole wheat, I have always scored just before putting in the even, never right after shaping. Has anyone else tried this?
I've tried scoring 100% WW loaves immediately after shaping. The cuts in fact do keep better definition.
Give it a try next time.
Thanks, I will try it this weekend.
proof in a basket of the last hour and a half. It is much netter to put it in a basket seam side down and not score at all. In order to get a good crumb you need a high hydration for Whole grain breads and they want to spread if you don't use a basket.
If you don't care what the crumb looks like then cut the hydration, proof without a basket and slash when ever you want.
Actually, the thought of how to handle final proofing did just occur to me. I am going to try it both ways - one, slash, then final proof in a banneton cut side down, and the other cut side up and see what happens.
Hey Barry, I’ll be watching for your findings. Please post images.
Dan
Not a success. So i made a 100% home milled Winter White Wheat sourdough loaf, 82% hydration, preshaped after
bulk ferment, then final shaped, and scored.
So it looked fine , I then placed it seam side up in the banneton for final proof, when it came out it looked like this - most of the scoring had disappeared.
This is the shot after I finished baking
So from an appearance standpoint, I would not call it a success, though that may be because it was high hydration.
This was the next test, a very similar recipe, though this one used a 8 grams of SD for a 450 gram flour loaf and a 8 hour BF at 82 F. This time, no scoring, just loaded into the banneton seam side down, when it came out of the banneton, it looked like this,
This is after being baked.
Hard to tell from the photo, but the middle part is very rounded. Of course, it is quite likely that the loaf was underproofed.
So while my tests were not exhaustive, I don't think scoring then final proofing scored side down will work very well for me.
Thanks for posting, Barry. I’m going to pass also unless I find different results
Dan
Barry, you wrote above that you did an 8hr BF @ 82F. Your flour is 100% whole grain.
I am curious to know if your dough is in danger of over fermenting and degrading. Even @ 1.8% Levain that sounds like a long time to ferment 100% whole wheat @ 82F. Is 8hr pushing the length of BF to the max?
I can get 16hr of BF @76F using 2% Levain. I use bread flour (12.3%). If I use any amount of whole grains the dough will degrade before 16hr.
I am interested to learn more about your process.
Dan
Dan, I have been playing around with bf and fp, and don't know that I have any answers, since I find that I usually make only two types of bread, underproofed and overproofed. I have done a fair number of loaves with BF at 82 degrees, when i started at 2.6% starter, I did end up with goo at the end of the bf. By scaling back to 1.8, I get an increase in volume of 2.5 to 3 times, and the dough feels pillowly and full of air, but still has some strength. I am using 82F to get some sour, and 8 hours is just the amount of time I am asleep, so the only thing that I am really varying is the amount of starter. My normal procedure is to refresh the starter 1:2 :2 in the morning just before I go to work, and I let that go around 10 to 11 hours at 82 F, then that night prepare the final dough, and let it sit a room temp, till I put it in the proofer overnight. The next morning, I preshape, then shape, then into a banneton, and into a fridge. Actually, I found that was overproofing by the time I came home when I put it in the bar fridge, which is probably a little warmer than a typical house fridge. If I am making bread on a weekend, I find that by 3 or 4 pm, the final proof is done. Here is a batard I did a few weeks ago using the same recipe and process.
Barry, at 1:2:2 for 10-11 hr @ 82F doesn’t your Levain get way over fermented? Sounds like a long time at such a hot temp and a small feed. I would think that at 4, maybe 6 hours the starter would begin to recede and then fall.
Are you trying to build acids?
Is the bread baked with your procedure very sour?
I really like the flavor of bread that is warm fermented for extended time, with or without a cold retard thrown in. I am always looking for methods that will enhance the sour profile of my breads.
Dan
Oh! Have you thought about retarding your final proof in the house refrigerator on the bottom shelf? If you are over proofing during a cold proof, it sounds like your bar frig may be too warm. 38F is cold enough that over proofing a properly bulked dough for 16 hr or more shouldn’t present a problem. At least, that’s been my experience.
Dan, yes I am going for sour. I want to keep going till it is as sour as I can get it, then I may back down a little on this journey.
As for over fermented levian, some suggest a very young levian for sweetness, such as Tartine, but since I am going for sour, I want it past mature. Since I have no problem with it giving lift to the bread ( during bulk ferment, it will triple in volume if I let it ) I don't see the downside of the levian feeding schedule.
I have also tried, though only on weekends, refreshing at a 1:2 :2 and keeping it in the proofer set at 92 with refreshments around 3 1/2 to 4 hours for 3 refreshments, before adding it to the dough - and that has helped the sour as well. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/37061/making-starter-more-sour
As to the final proof, yes, I am going to experiment with putting it in a cooler location
A higher % of a stiff levain should give more sour. And if you can build the levain then retard it in the fridge for a day then even better.
Abe, I’m still enthralled with Teresa’s SFSD. I’ve probably baked 40 loaves or more of these. I can’t beat the flavor profile. And guess what, I don’t gain weight eating it. I think the long fermentation is breaking down the starches. Just a guess, but I eat 4 - 5 thin slices or so a day; every day.
I am amazed at how many different loaves you bake. When I find a favorite loaf, it’s hard to bake anything else.
Dan
Teresa's Do Nothing Bread is one of my favourites. In fact not only is it very tasty indeed it taught me what a fully developed dough should feel like when it comes to gluten formation. Fancy that... a no knead dough recipe has helped in my learning curve when it comes to developing the gluten.
Even though it's high hydration, that's where my shaping suffers and normally oven spring does too, I'm getting some of my best crumb and oven spring from this method.
I'm like you... once I like something I can get hooked on it. Trying out different recipes and having many favourites helps. Teresa's recipe is right up there and before long it's turn comes again.
Thank you Dan.
Barry, my favorite bread at this time is Teresa Greenway’s SFSD. If you have a little time, inclination, and $20 I recommend her online class.
https://www.udemy.com/bake-san-francisco-style-sourdough-bread/?couponCode=NWSD19
It is my experience that a “sweet” (yeast favored) Levain is very able to produce a great tasting sourdough. The sour can be achieved through long fermentation at warm (76F) temps.
I tried hot ferments with reduced fermentation times, so as not to degrade the dough. In my experience, it didn’t produce the sour I was looking for. I went so far as to final proof a dough @ 105F, using a procedure described as Larraburu method. IMO, no near a good a flavor as Teresa’s SFSD.
Dan
Barry you wrote, “Since I have no problem with it giving lift to the bread ( during bulk ferment, it will triple in volume if I let it ) I don't see the downside of the levian feeding schedule.”
Some months back I thought like you. But for the type of procedure (extended warm ferments) that I currently use, the over fermented levains bring too much acid into the final dough. If I use a Levain that favors LAB, I am unable to BF for the target time. Disclaimer - I like a bread with a smooth sour flavor, not a sharp sour flavor.
I am a believer that there are many ways to achieve sour. I also think there are more than one sour flavor profile. Dab and many others are authorities on sour and I am constantly learning from them.
Aren’t the variables in bread baking intriguing? It never ceases to amaze me, how many flavors a baker can produce from just flour, salt, and water. And a-lot-of LOVE...
Dan
Dan, actually, I did buy Theresa's video, unfortunately, I did not find it very worthwhile. Of course, since I limit myself to 100% home milled whole wheat, that may be part of my evaluation.
Abe, so what I have read from Debra Wink, the higher the percentage of starter, the less sour. I have read her posts here in detail, this is the summary. https://brodandtaylor.com/make-sourdough-more-or-less-sour-part-2/
I have also read that the higher the hydration, the more acidic, but did reread the Brod and Taylor site, and Wink's summary there says drier equals more sour. What I find so confusing is that there are many conflicting suggestions.
Dan, as to so many variations using just FWSY, actually, I have been using the exact same ingredients, in the same proportions , for the last month or two, the only thing that I have changed in the timing and temperature for the levian, and bulk ferment, and still get different results. I sometimes read of others swapping out different percentages of flours and think, of my, that would open up just another huge set of variables. As to the levian overfermenting, In the brod and taylor page, Wink suggests that using the levian before peak makes it less sour, and with whole wheat, it is pretty hard to determine exact peak, so I err on the side of overfermenting.
Sorry to hear Teresa’s SFSD didn’t work for you. But 100% whole grain will never work using her time frame. Whole grains accelerate the ferment. I’ve experimented with up to 15% whole grain and even that small amount is challenging, but doable, to BF for 16 hr @ 76-77F. Dough degredation is the major concern when baking her method. She pushes the dough’s integrity up to it’s limits with the goal of maximizing flavor.
I also struggle with proper fermentation for 100% whole grain. Because of that I often use at least 50 flour in the mix.
Dan
This thread is a couple of months old, but I find it interesting and useful all the same.
For those who have not read this elsewhere, you can use weight loss during levain fermentation to accurately measure maturity. This was developed for high hydration levain (260%), but it turns out to work just as well for stiff levain (60% hydration). The rule is to know how much flour you add to the mixture of starter + water. Then mix, cover with plastic cling film and weigh everything. Calculate 2% of the weight of the added flour and subtract it from the weight of the bowl + starter + water + flour. When the weight drops by the 2%, the levain is ready to use. It will lose a lot more weight if you let it, and it is good even if you let it go a long time, but it is ready when it drops by 2% of added flour weight. It turns out that cling film will let CO2 through even if tightly sealed, but for a ~500g batch of levain, I will lose an additional 1g of weight when I release the CO2 trapped under the cling film (sometimes it is sealed well enough to gently pop when it is opened).
Doc, .Not sure I understand. Are you saying that the levian is at its maximum strength when it has lost 2% of it's weight? I am usually going for a sour Tang, so I usually let it go well past ripe
Levain "ripeness" is a continuous variable and might be put into a few different stages:
1. Not close to ripe - neither the yeast nor the LAB have reached maximum population growth rates (i.e., the population curves for both are still concave upward)
2. LAB replication stopped by pH - levain pH is less than 3.8 (3.6-3.8 really because it depends on the specifics of the LAB). The LAB population stabilizes but they still metabolize sugars at about the same rate and crank out acid at a nearly constant rate.
3. Yeast population growth rate is declining (this is where both population growth curves are increasing but become concave downward). Sugar concentration is declining as consumption overcomes production (from the breakdown of starch).
4. Populations stabilize (LAB and yeast have so little sugar to consume that the acid production by LAB and the yeast cell count stagnate). At this point acid production probably continues at a very low rate, but yeast population is beginning to decline and it will take some time to rebuild the growth mechanisms necessary to initiate a new cycle of exponential growth so if you wait this long to feed it, the yeast population growth rate takes a hit on average as it has to wait to grow even if a bunch of glucose shows up.
So if you want the maximum acid concentration, you can always wait longer and get more, but at some point yeast activity declines so much that you don't have enough to do what you want in the time you have available.
The 2% number corresponds to late stage 2. Yeast population growth rate is still robust, but LAB population is static while acid concentration continues to increase. You don't want to use the levain before the 2% criteria is met. There is a ratio of LAB:yeast that runs around 100:1 (10E6 CFU/g: 10E4 CFU/g) but during the growth cycle, this ratio shifts and your specific feeding schedule can bias the operating point. If you feed early and often, you will get lots of LAB and deplete the yeast population. If you let it run to stability, you get back to the 100:1 ratio that is considered "normal". If you feed at a low ratio [e.g., 1:1:1] the pH of the immediate post mix environment is too low to allow the LAB growth to reach the pre-refresh number density and the yeast take off and consume the vast majority of the available sugars (because the newly added flour is insufficient to neutralize the enough of the acid to get the pH above ~5). If you feed too lean (1:200:200) you run the risk that biological contamination of the flour will (after a number of cycles) replace your favorite species of LAB and/or yeast with some critters you really would rather not deal with.
By the way, if you are looking for more acid in your levain, you might try going to a higher hydration (like maybe 200% or at least putting all of formula water into the levain). This extra water then dilutes the acid in the extra-cellular medium and make the acid gradient across the cell wall lower, and thus facilitates the LAB making more before they reach the point where they can't push it out through the cell wall against the osmotic pressure.
I hope that makes some sense.
Doc, I followed some of it, but did get lost a few times. I think what is so baffling to me is the contradictory advice. I think in some ways it must be that I don't know the neighborhood so that when I ask one person how to get to a place they told me to go north teo blocks, and then a right and then go straight for a while another and yet somebody else tells me to start off going south, but what they are doing is having me take the freeway so I should end up at the same place. Debra Wink it's pretty clear that going to a lower hydration levian gives more sour and so that is what I have been doing. You now suggest I should go to a very liquid levian to get a sour taste, so color me confused
I will do a few tests and measure weight to see what it's going on. I think I have a rough idea on what I want in terms of final proof , somewhere in the range of 75% proofed so I will get one oven spring. (not that I am great at estimating that at least I think I know the goal),. but as to bulk ferment, I know I'm trying to develop flavor but not sure what the goal is in terms of volume increase etcetera
I suspect that a stiff levain may maximize the concentration of acid and thus produce the most sour tasting levain, but if you want the most acid you have two choices, build it in the levain and add to it during bulk ferment and proof, or use a small amount of starter with a high population density of LAB and let them make acid while you slow down the yeast by retarding at a temperature where the LAB have a significant advantage over the yeast so that they produce lots of acid while the yeast produce only just enough CO2. It is a LAB:yeast issue and an acid concentration issue. Since we taste sour in proportion to the TTA, you want lots of acid in the finished bread. If you build acid into the levain, then having excess water dilutes it so that while it may be less sour to the taste, it has more total acid to deliver to the dough. The long cold proof gives the LAB an advantage because of the nature of the growth rate curves for both LAB and yeast at low temperatures. If you get too cold you turn off the yeast; if you don't get cold enough the yeast will proof the dough before the LAB have built the acidity that you value, so it is a very fine balancing act (as you have already learned). And (oh by the way) different yeast and LAB varieties have somewhat different temperature vs growth rate curves on the low end. It appears that Larraburu used a process that exploited the difference in LAB acid production rate and yeast growth rate at the high end of the temperature range rather than the low end - which must have depended on a culture specific characteristic that I have never been able to replicate (and apparently neither has anybody else who has reported results here).
Let us know the details of your experiments and how they turn out. You have an attentive audience.
Doc, thanks. My current process is a stiff starter, refreshed 3 times, once every 12 hours, and kept at 82f, then used 454 grams home milled winter white flour 82% hydration, autolyse 30 minutes, then add 8 grams starter, 8 grams salt, knead 4 minutes in DLX, ferment overnight at 82 F,. preshape,. shape, set in banneton in fridge for 12 hours, bake straight out of fridge. I am getting a sour Tang pretty regularly with this process, but not every time.
You are to a great extent dependent on the refrigerator temperature to get your sour. An interesting data point could be acquired by putting a quart of 82°F water in your refrigerator for 12 hours in the same location where you put the banneton and report the temperature of the water when you take it out. This is a reasonable proxy for your lump of dough and will do an excellent job of averaging the refrigerator temperature over your retard time.
The other question that arises is how long "overnight" is. There is a big difference between 6 hr and 8 hrs. You are using 0.9% prefermented flour and my calculation shows that you might try a batch using 20% prefermented flour and eliminate an 8 hr bulk fermentation @ 28°C.
The only other thing I see that seems anomalous is the short mix time. I am assuming that you mix with the DLX roller and scraper at the highest recommended speed (6?), and 4 minutes seems short to me for what I would expect (at 82% hydration and 100% whole wheat) will be a sloppy dough.
But I didn't find any detail on your starter refresh ratio. At 12 hr intervals for a stiff starter I don't know what to expect. 1:2:3, 1:4:6, ...? Of course 82°F may enable larger numbers, but whatever you are getting in terms of levain growth profile will carry over to the dough except that the dough will be slowed down substantially by the salt. Your photos show a loaf that is much better behaved than I would expect for 82% hydration and 28°C bulk ferment.
Doc, thanks for the help. In mixing, I am a fan of Hamelman, and his suggestion to avoid overmixing. I have tried mixing for longer periods and shorter periods, but have not noticed a difference. I do use the highest speed, though I only have the 450 watt version, I understand the later version has a higher top speed. Yes I use the roller and scraper.
My refresh ratio is Starter 1 Flour 2, and water 1.5
Yes overnight is a variable. If I mix at 7 pm, I will put in the fridge to cool down a little, then stick in the proofer at 82 F at 9, and check on it the next morning around 7 am - sometimes it has nearly doubled, and other times it has risen by about 50% - which is my latest target.
Great idea on the water in the fridge, I will do that tonight.
You said You are to a great extent dependent on the refrigerator temperature to get your sour. This is a source of my confusion. I assumed that by doing 3 refreshes at 82 F on my starter, I have gotten the sour profile in the starter, and assumed the long bulk ferment would reinforce the sour, On the other hand, you say the sour is primarily during the final proof - which is when it is in the fridge. I would note that the amount of starter is dictated by trying to time the BF and FP so that they can occur when I am at work or asleep, which allows me to bake during the week. If I went to a 20 % starter, would that be in the fridge? I was afraid at room temp, that it would overferment.
You are right, in that without the bulk fermentation you lose that opportunity to develop acid but if you deliver the same amount of acid in your levain then you are even. The variable that I forgot about was the CO2 production that you get during BF that you do not make up for by using a larger fraction of pre-fermented flour. So the optimum point is somewhere in between, but you certainly could start with 20% prefermented flour and BF for 60-90 min at 82°F which would deliver the CO2 (though you may need to adjust your flour and water temperatures to get the dough to be at 82°F when you finish your mixing so that you are getting a full 60 min @ 82°F of BF). With this model you are getting exponential LAB growth early in the levain fermentation which trails off as the pH gets down to 3.8 but you then get a stable rate of acid production while the yeast population catches up. After you divide and shape (pre-shape and shape for you) you want to shift to a new operating point where the LAB acid production is (while slow) advantageous relative to the yeast production of CO2, and this occurs very near the temperature where the yeast completely stops replicating. If you read Gänzle enough times, and recognize that you probably don't have either the same LAB or yeast that he used for his experiments, you can use his model to generally characterize LAB and yeast growth in sourdough cultures and in bread dough. In every case I have found, the LAB growth rate is higher than that of the yeast in the same culture which leads to the observed behavior that the LAB population grows first and only after it slows down as a result of the pH dropping does the yeast overtake it and consume the majority of the remaining sugars in the mix. The other thing to recognize is that Gänzle built a math model that characterizes the LAB and yeast in the heart of their growth zone and for simplification set cutoff growth temperatures at both the high and low ends. The fact is that his cutoff points are dictated by his model, and not by mother nature. When you want to operate down near where the yeast stops growing, YOU have to find that point for your culture and your dough. His model is wrong because it was not intended to be used at the extremes. But there is some temperature where the yeast is almost static while the LAB continues to make acid and you are looking for that point. Once you pick a point to test, you have to figure out what your starting conditions are (post shaping and after initial cooling) such that some number of hours later the dough has enough CO2 to give you the oven spring you seek, and you will then find out if the acidity is where you want it to be. But (foot stomp here) the yeast behavior at low temperature and your initial conditions govern the process. The acidity is a result but not something you are controlling (except indirectly). If it is not sour enough, go back and change the temperature (lower by a degree) and figure out how long it has to ferment to be ready to bake, then see if you are now getting the acid you were looking for. Iterate until you decide you get to where you want to go or decide that you never will. If you decide that it will never get there, you now go back and change the percentage of prefermented flour and the bulk fermentation time and temperature to give you a new set of cold proof initial conditions. Repeat until successful. Every variable you have under your control (last time I counted there were around 30 that you can measure) will have an impact, so this is not something that is easy and I hope you can see why it is impossible to specify exactly a path to success for you. You have to find it because you control all of the inputs and process variables as well as set the criteria for success.
In manufacturing a process is refined by using DOE (Design of Experiments), and this is no different. But any manufacturing engineer will tell you that 30 variables is impossible to optimize in one set of experiments and to stick to 2 or 3 because otherwise the number of experiments grows exponentially.
Good luck. Lets see what temperature your refrigerator is actually delivering and go from there.
Doc, thanks, I put a container with 820 grams of water in the fridge at about 9 pm at 81.5 F and checked at 7 am and it was 45. Reading your post suggests I should try a 20 % levian , 1 hour BF at 82 ( with a DDT of 82 prior to BF ) then cold retard for the rest of the BF, with the levian at 200% hydration.
I guess I am a little surprised that your refrigerator is that warm, but perhaps the circulation where you put the water is not great. Was the container plastic by chance?
But that is a good approximation of what the cold proof temperature has been for prior runs. Since you know Hamelman well, you will recognize his 42°F for 18 hrs or 8 hrs at 50°F as being close to what you are about to do, and note that he uses 20% prefermented flour and typically calls for a bulk fermentation of 2-1/2 hours at 76°F. You are going to BF for a shorter time at a higher temperature (6°F will approximately double the fermentation rate so 1:00-1:15 @ 82°F should be good. You are going to retard for 12 hrs at a slightly higher temperature than he calls for so you might be a bit under-proofed but that is in the details and most likely will vary somewhat from starter to starter. If it is under-proofed and you have time, you can wait before baking or just adjust next time.
I think your plan is sound. Take good notes and expect to take 6 to 8 cycles to dial it in (or abandon that starting point and start the search anew).
Doc, thanks, I will start this week. BTW, the fridge is a bar type fridge, my main fridge is more like 33. I measured the temp this evening to see if it dropped much more, but it only read 44.
I think 6 to 8 cycles sounds fine. Barry.
Yes, a bar refrigerator will rarely be as cold as a larger one, so the overnight rest reduced 82°F to 45°F which is 97% of the way to to your current 44° reading which sounds right for the specific case you ran. The 2 lb of water is close to your single loaf weight so the thermal behavior will be similar. You might want to change the setting by one mark on the thermostat and see how much difference that makes in a repeated experiment. Those small refrigerators don't seem to have a wide range of operating temperatures but it will be good to know what to expect. I have found that I need to be below 50°F if I want to run longer than just overnight (like from mid-day on Saturday to an oven window on Sunday morning) but I have added a digital loop that gives me better temperature control.
For the next few rounds try to vary just BF and proof times.
If you are lucky and get an overproofed loaf on round 1, you know you can bulk ferment a little less (30 min) and hold everything else constant for the next iteration, though I find that the dough is more tolerant of overproofing than I expect. For these experiments you have to change only one thing at a time or you have no idea what influenced what. If you are unlucky and need more bulk fermentation, try adding 30 min (vs 15 or 60 min) of BF and holding everything else constant.