Pierre Nury’s Rustic Light Rye - Leader
This is a new recipe I made from Daniel Leader’s book, Local Breads, for a Parisian loaf of Pierre Nury’s who is a recipient of the prestigious Meilleur Ouvrier de France award, as noted in the book.This is a very rustic light rye considered to be his signature loaf and is compared to Italian ciabatta.
It was very interesting to make and loads of fun although my timeline didn’t quite match Leader’s description of what would take place in the amount of time noted.I have made notes below in the recipe for how this worked for me.
This is delicious bread!I will definitely bake this loaf again.The recipe is so simple I see it as almost a no fail bread.The flavor is very good and I would describe it so far as the most tangy bread I’ve made to date keeping in mind my sourdoughs are very mild.I think it is really an outstanding flavor and toasted it is wonderful with a real depth of flavor.
The crumb is beautiful and very moist and almost spongy.It is very open like a ciabatta which just seemed so odd to me after such a long, overnight rise.
Here is the recipe for those of you who might like to give it a try.
Pierre Nury’s Rustic Light Rye – © Daniel Leader, Local Breads
Makes 2 long free-form loaves (18 ounces/518 grams each)Time:
8 – 12 hours to prepare the levain
20 minutes to mix and rest the dough
10 to 12 minutes to knead
3 to 4 hours to ferment
12 to 24 hours to retard
20 to 30 minutes to bake
Levain:
45 grams - stiff dough levain(45%)
50 grams – water (50%)
95 grams – bread flour, preferably high-gluten (I used KA Sir Lancelot) (95%)
5 grams – stone-ground whole wheat flour (5%)
Prepare levain by kneading and place into a covered container.Let stand at room temperature (70 to 75 degrees F) for 8 to 12 hours until it has risen into a dome and has doubled in volume.*
Bread dough:
400 grams – water (80%)
450 grams – bread flour, preferably high-gluten (I used Sir Lancelot) (90%)
50 grams – fine or medium rye flour (I used KA medium) (10%)
125 grams - levain starter**
10 grams – sea salt (I used kosher)
Mix:
Pour water into bowl of a stand mixer.Add the bread flour and rye flour and stir until it absorbs all of the water and a dough forms.Cover and autolyse for 20 minutes.
Knead:
Add the levain and salt.By machine, mix on medium speed (4 on a Kitchenaid mixer) until it is glossy, smooth and very stretchy for 12 to 14 minutes.***This dough is very sticky and will not clear the sides of the bowl.Give the dough a windowpane test to judge its readiness by gently stretching a golf-ball sized piece until it is thin enough to see through and not tear.If it tears mix for another 1 to 2 minutes and test again.To get maximum volume in the baked loaf, make sure not to under-knead.
Ferment:
Transfer dough to a lightly oiled container and cover.Leave to rise at room temperature (70 to 75 degrees) for 1 hour.It will inflate only slightly.
Turn: (stretch and fold):
Turn the dough twice at 1-hour intervals.After second turn, cover dough and leave to rise until it expands into a dome twice its original size, 1 to 2 hours more.****It will feel supple, airy, and less sticky.
Retard:
Place the container in the refrigerator and allow the dough to ferment slowly for 12 to 24 hours.It will develop flavor but not rise significantly.Two to 3 hours before you want to bake, remove from refrigerator and let stand on the counter, covered.It will not rise and will feel cool.
Preheat oven:About 1 hour before baking heat oven (with baking stone) to 450°F.
Shape loaves:
Scrape dough onto floured counter and coat the top of the dough with flour.Press the mound of dough into a rough 10-inch square. Cut dough into 2 equal pieces (18 ounces/518 grams each).With floured hands, lift up one piece from the ends and in one smooth motion, gently stretch it to about 12 inches long and let it fall in whatever shape it may onto parchment paper.Repeat with the remaining piece of dough, spacing the two pieces at least 2 inches apart.(No need to score.)
Bake:
Steam oven as usual.Immediately after shaping, slide loaves, on the parchment, onto the baking stone.Bake until crust underneath the swirls of flour is walnut-colored, 20 to 30 minutes.
Cool:
Cool on wire rack for about 1 hour before slicing.Don’t be surprised by the long troughs running through the crumb.This is part of the bread’s character.
Store:
Store loaves with cut side covered in plastic at room temp for 3 to 4 days.For longer storage, freeze in resealable plastic bags for up to 1 month.
http://zolablue.smugmug.com/gallery/4189134#244767439
NOTES:
*Leader says to allow the levain only to double in the amount of time noted.My starter more than tripled in less than 6 hours so at that time I mixed the dough.I think this may have slowed my fermentation way down since my starter had not fully risen and collapsed but I find I am always at odds with Leader’s instructions on firm starters.
**The levain recipe calls for ingredients which make up more than is needed for the dough recipe which I find problematic only because it bugs me.I want instructions for making the amount I need for a recipe and not to have any levain as leftover.He does this in some recipes and not in others so to me that is another flaw in their editing.Just make sure you weigh the proper amount for the dough recipe.
***I used a DLX mixer at about medium speed for roughly 10 to 12 minutes.
****My dough did not rise more than about 25% (if that) in the container in more than three hours after fermentation started.Again, I think that was due to using my levain too soon.I chose to place the dough in my pantry overnight to rise instead of the refrigerator since it had not doubled as it was supposed to by that time.My pantry is very cold at 62°F now as it is on an outside wall and this allowed a good spot for the dough to ferment overnight instead. It rose to just over double by the time I was ready to bake it.That fermentation took about 17 hours total.
Comments
Those pictures are out of this world - not to mention your detailed and very clear instructions. You are such a wonderful baker!
I'm not sure whether I will actually try this recipe because it looks a bit too rustic for my family's taste, and I did notice the word 'tangy' slipped in...
But, it looks fantastic !!!!
L_M
ZB,
Wow, this may be "the" ZB masterpiece. I don't know, but it's at least right up there with the best bread photography I've seen. The photos are just perfect, especially that last one.
Bill
I saw that one in the book too (just got it from the library).
That crumb is amazing!
I had a few adustments with the first recipe I made too--but I futzed with the recipe a bit so it was too early to judge the book. Good point that some of our starters behave a bit differently.
You had to show me this! Zolablue, those are some fabulous loaves! And, I agree with Bill -- your photos are outstanding. You may have changed my game plan for this weekend.
Gorgeous loaves!
Liz
That. Looks. So. Good.
-Cyrus
Wow, ZolaBlue, this looks FANTASTIC! I'm curious, if I'm reading it right, the loaf is about 10% rye -- correct? Is there a pronounced rye flavor?
Zolablue, your bread and your photos are Amazing! Ditto what Bill said, masterpiece.
TT
L_M – Thanks so much and but I still call myself an accidental baker. There is so much to learn and when we have a success it really feels good especially trying out a new recipe. I doubt this bread is for you because it is tangy but not overly so however I suppose that is kind of subjective to the taste buds.
Bill – You are too, too nice to me. I love it so please never stop! (lol)
Fleur – I was thinking about you as I was posting this. It was meant to entice you into baking submission. (hehe) Please make this soon and let me know your thoughts. If you love it as much as I do we might be even (after making me fall in love with Pain de Campagne and subsequently bake it 600 times!) Ok, maybe not 600 but…:o).
JMonkey – Yes, it is 10% rye and I did use medium rye which I recently bought from KA. I’m trying to notice the difference in flavor as I usually use Hodgson Mill whole rye since that is all I’ve found locally so far. As far as this bread tasting like rye, I have to admit I’ve not eaten that much rye bread. I would say it is a subtle flavor in that department but this has a just wonderful, deep flavor to me. I want to make it a lot! And I really prefer milder sourdough but this is really so good and I can just imagine it making incredible Panini.
Breadnerd – How did you find this as far as rye flavor goes? Or maybe you meant you tried a different Leader recipe.
I can say that I noticed a big difference in the Pain de Campagne I made using the medium rye flour over the whole rye. I loved them both but I almost preferred the whole rye in that recipe. So definitely medium rye is milder. I think. I'm not sure. I did make Hamelman's 40% rye for Reuben's on New Year's Day and it was very rye tasting and really good rustic bread.
To summarize, my first thought tasting this bread was, wow, is this what San Francisco sourdough must taste like? Yum! All I know is that it isn’t overpowering to me at all but just DELICIOUS. I’d love to know if that is anyone else’s experience. FWIW, my husband just ate several pieces toasted and he is generally not a huge bread eater. He ate some with apricot preserves and then tasted mine with plain butter and he loved the flavor so much he toasted two more pieces for himself. The whole time he was oohing and aahing how good it was. Made me smile.
Save a place for me on that wagon--another beautiful post, zolablue. I see you've finally taken the rye plunge, and it does look extraordinary.
And I think once again, as I so often do here, what lucky families we all have, who get to reap the fruits of our obsession and are never in want of excellent bread.
pictures of your loaves, I can smell and almost taste the bread, Wow, that's power photography!
Mini O
Ditto, ditto, ditto etc. for each of the above posts. Great job, as always. weavershouse
Beautiful....just beautiful!
Once again, I knew it was you right away when I saw the photo on the front page. Fantastic!
Susanfnp
http://www.wildyeastblog.com
Oh no, I added all the levain! Why didn't he make only what is needed? Oh well, we'll see how it does. I'm making it by hand and kneaded for 5 min. and will do a couple of stretch and folds. I don't expect to see a crumb like your's zolablue but hope it tastes good. weavershouse
Coincidentally, I too tried this bread for the first time at the weekend. Mine didn't look nearly as good as yours Zola but it tasted fanstastic. It's my new favourite bread. I love that there's really no shaping required.
I left my starter overnight to develop - about 10 hours. I too found the dough took far longer to rise at the ferment stage than Leader says. I've come to the conclusion his estimate on the ferment stage is a bit too optimistic (I have made a lot of the breads from that book and so far, none of them give an estimate of rising time greater than about 3 hours). It was about 75F in my kitchen and it really hadn't risen much more than about 25% after about 5 hours! So I stuck it in the fridge with no real expectations it would rise any more. I was surprised to find it had risen beautifully to almost 3.5 times the next day. The taste is fantastic. I think it IS similar to a SF sourdough but the taste is so complex it's not like tanginess is the only thing your palate tastes. My husband and I had it with smoked salmon and capers and that was yum. It's just as good with sweet conserves though.
I'd like to play around with the rye content because I thought it was barely discernable for a bread that's supposed to be a light rye.
Fiona
Fiona - Thanks so much for reporting about your experience making this bread. I'll try it again and allow the levain to go overnight just to see what happens.
My kitchen was about 70F and I thought that might have had a lot to do with how slowly it rose but apparently not. I'm really surprised the dough rose that much in your fridge. Wow. I was afraid if I put mine into the fridge without enough rise it would do nothing and I'd simply be starting from scratch the next day waiting for this very long, slow rise. I'll try that next time, too.
I'm glad you agree that the taste is complex. And that it is good with preserves as well as a turkey, jarlsberg cheese grilled sandwich I made with it today. Yum! The smoked salmon sounds wonderful, too!
Thanks for your opinion on the rye flavor. I wasn't sure as most rye breads I've eaten are so loaded with caraway I'm not sure I really taste the rye as much as the seeds. I don't see how adding more rye would hurt. Also, I wonder what would happen if we used whole rye. Seems like a good recipe to experiment with. Thanks again for your great notes!
How did making this by hand work out for you? I'm so curious because he doesn't even give instructions in the book for that method. It is such a wet dough and oddly elastic during mixing which also made it fun. I can't imagine how you were able to knead it by hand - you must be really good!
I agree, it is so frustrating that Leader didn't pay attention to the levain amounts on many of his recipes. I'm sure your bread will taste fine as it didn't make a lot more than required for the recipe, plus it is such a slow riser. I'll be anxious to hear how it turns out for you and hope you like it.
RUSTIC LIGHT RYE
Well, there it is. I made a big goof when I added all the levain to the dough but in the end I think the results were fine. I ended up with 5 12" loaves because I doubled the recipe and, of course, added too much levain. I did this totally by hand but believe me it wasn't work. I kneaded a total of exactly 4 minutes. I don't have a lot of strength in my arms.
A quick rundown...After I had the dough mixed and realized my error I thought there it goes but I decided to go ahead with the project anyway. I let the dough sit for 45 min. and then did my 4 min. of kneading. Let it rest 1 hour, did a stretch and fold, rest 1 hour, another stretch and fold, let it rise 3 hours, shape and let rise 1 1/2 hr. and baked.
I really didn't shape so much as stretch the dough out like a ciabatta and did some dimpling on two and slashing on two. One loaf I just folded in half once without sealing well just to see what it would do. It's the split loaf. My thought is because it had more levain it rose faster so I didn't retard overnight. I handled the dough gently and let it rise till it seemed puffy and light. I didn't think I would get the holes and didn't know how the taste would be but the holes are there and let me tell you you're right about the great taste. Really great but it has no sour or very little. I ground the wheat and rye in my Nutrimill and I think it added a great, almost sweet, nutty flavor to the bread even though there is really very little there.
So, I think I just might add all the levain next time too. Oh, one more thing. I tried to leave the bread in the oven to get nice and really dark like yours but I don't care how many times I've tried it my loaves never get that beautiful dark crust. I think I chicken out and pull the loaves because they are about to burst into flames. Then I get them cooled and think where's the dark crust. Oh well, it was a fun day and thanks for being the first with so many great breads. You're an inspiration.
weavershouse
You mad woman (hehe) you got some great looking loaves! I still don't see how you kneaded by hand, honestly the dough is one of the wettest I've worked with and then just plain elastic and sticky when fully kneaded. But you did it!
You know, I always have the voice of Maggie Glezer inside my head when I'm about ready to take loaves out of the oven. She says when you think they're done give them 5 more minutes!
Did you taste the rye flavor?
When I made the mistake of using all the levain it probably changed the structure of the dough enough that it was wet but not impossible to work with. By the 2nd stretch and fold it was much easier. I'm happy that I could do this by hand because I don't have a mixer and I was skipping recipes that called for one. Genzano, here I come!
Oh, I did taste the rye even though there is barely any in there. I used whole ground rye, freshly milled and it made a difference. Next time I'll up the amount. You're right about rye usually tasting of caraway but not here. And next time I'll leave those loaves in the oven till they try getting out themselves. Thanks again zolablue. weavershouse
You made me laugh. (hehe) I love that you are thinking "Genzano" and I'm here to cheer you on. I was looking at pizza dough recipes and see that Leader uses that very dough for pizza as well. I'm going to try it, gosh, it would just be fabulous for pizza.
You made a few changes but the bread still worked. I think that is great because I love the artistic side of baking so much and knowing that you don't have to hurt your brain being so exacting gives me confidence. I've made more than a few mistakes of dumping in too much levain or using a different flour, such as whole rye instead of medium or fine. I would think the whole rye is good in this recipe although your freshly milled would certainly be superior. (Note to self: buy DLX grinder soon.)
I also think Leader way overestimates the speed and amount of time some of these recipes need to mix. I wish sometimes some of us could sit down with him and talk to him and tell him our concerns and ask questions because so much of it doesn't make sense. Still, I absolutely love the book! It is so full of incredibly different and interesting recipes.
weavershouse, how lovely! You've really got the high-hydration-by-hand technique down--when I'm ready to try it again I'll be referring to these notes.
What a great thread Zolablue. Really first rate Artisan work in all aspects. I'm about to take the plunge on a DLX and this is the inspiration I needed.
Can you clarify the handling after you cut the 10X10 square in two, then stretched it as you placed it on the paper? You must be using a scraper to pick it up? I haven't done much with ciabatta style doughs.
Weavershouse those look great also! Both of you got very nice crumb structure.
Eric
Eric - The DLX is fabulous. I highly recommend it.
Leader had a bit more detail in some of the steps so I'll elaborate. He says to "generously" dust the counter with flour and scrape the dough out. I use a very small, fine sieve to dust my counter with flour because I can really control the amount I put down that way and I don't like the dough picking up a lot of raw flour. So that's what I did.
When the dough is scraped out it is full of bubbles. I was careful to pat it out gently into roughly 10 x 10 trying to preserve as many bubbles as I could. I have marble counters which are really great for dough handling and it is easy to pick up dough pieces from it without a heavy dusting of flour. I also use a large plastic dough cutter since I can't use metal on my marble. It is really quick and easy.
All you do is cut the pressed out dough in half with your dough scraper and pick it up at the ends and stretch gently and place onto the parchment. I actually tore two separate pieces of parchment so I could control how I placed them on my baking stone. The dough was very springy and didn't want to stay stretched so I picked up each piece again and actually held them kind of from the ends first and then put one hand under the middle section and let it kind of fall on both sides, if that makes sense. It is really pretty forgiving dough. All of that took only a few seconds.
Then you place those pieces on the parchment and bake immediately. No scoring. Steam oven and bake. I only baked mine 20 minutes and was amazed at how they sprung in the oven from those odd flattish pieces.
More notes from the foreword, Leader stated he was surprised when Nury first presented this bread to him - this oblong, free form loaf with none of the tapered points, artful scores or elegant shape that you are used to seeing in French bread. He described them as bronze, flour-dusted and squat in appearance like Italian ciabatta. He said it didn't take him long to reconsider his first impression of these loaves. He tells how Nury cuts the dough into pieces, pulls it into long, slack loaves and bakes them right away. Easy peasy.
Thanks, Digger! Here is a site I like because you can look below at a list of ingredients and then use the chart at the top to make your conversions. I'm not sure how accurate it is based on the food choice but it works to give you an idea about the conversion. Just be aware that measuring by volume compared to weight can lead to somewhat different results depending how you measure flour, ie: dip and scoop, spoon into cups, sift and then spoon or dip and scoop. Everyone has a little different hand in doing that.
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/cooking
Zolablue: You are a bread temptress, indeed! I just had to make this bread, even though I am been heavily tempted by two other posts of late (Bertinet's basic sourdough posted by JinxRemoving and Hamelman's Olive Levain posted by Bart). So, what's an obsessive-compulsive baker supposed to do but bake them all!
Back to Pierre -- all was going well. I, too, experienced slower rising times than Leader suggested, but it did continue to rise during retardation in the refrigerator. The shaping and stretching went well... no problems there. Slipped the two stretched loaves (full of air bubbles by this point) onto the floured parchment, slipped the parchment on to the hot stone, and when I went to move the oven rack back into the oven, the breads flew off the floured parchment and both landed in a heap on the oven floor! One was folded like an accordion and the other was just a tangled mess. Now how do I retrieve these things from the back of a hot oven???? I pulled out the stone, the racks, the steamy broiler pan with lava racks, took a giant spatula and pulled out the globs. However, I was not about to lose these guys to the whims of floured parchment. I flattened them and restretched them (one of them had already started to form a bit of a crust), put them back on the parchment and back into the oven they went.
Here is what Pierre looks like after his wild rollercoaster ride:
ZB: I agree that the taste is really wonderful. It's funny how pronounced the rye flavor is (I used freshly milled rye like Weavershouse), even though there is so little in the formula.
I will definitely try this again with a more conventional entry into the oven!
Thanks,
Liz
Oh, I just have to laugh but with empathy. I have had mishaps when shoving too-large loaves into my smaller-than-normal ovens. Oh, my, I have had them catch on some very interesting metal rack holders on the sides and fall down over my smallish baking stone like they are dripping and pushed into another metal thingie in the back of the oven and I have never been able to retrieve them quite so well as you!
Oh, my gosh! I bet you were horrified! We can laugh now and I bet that was not fun but, hey, what a trooper you are. And just look at your loaves - beautiful! Quite rustic...hehe. But seriously this is another testament to the recipe and how well those loaves hold up, if you ask me. I'm wondering if we could play catch with them just before popping them into the oven and they'd still come out ok.
You guys and your freshly milled flour are making me have milling envy!
I say funny only because I didn't go through it. You have such a good sense of humor about the whole thing. You never know what each bread baking day will bring. Your loaves are still great even after all they/you have been through. The crumb is beautiful and I agree the taste is great. weavershouse
Just wanted to mention that I have both of Bertinet's books, Dough, and Crust, and have never made a single thing from them. But I think they are just lovely books with simply incredible photography. I have many of his recipes on the list of "must try."
That is beautiful bread!
And what's even funnier to me... I'm on vacation, in Cancun, and I brought Local Breads with me (as a casual read, no less...) and I read that entire recipe last night and was dying to know what it would look like since he didn't post a picture of it! And how lucky am I to get on here this morning as I kill time until my flight and find it here in all its glory!!
I fly back home today and will be making that bread ASAP. You did a *fantastic* job! Very inspirational for me! Thank you so much for sharing!
Melissa in Atlanta
Weavershouse and Zolablue:
Thank you both for your empathy on my poor loaves. I did utter an expletive or two when they flew (and I mean flew) off the stone. But, since I had to retrieve them anyway for fear of what my oven floor would look like if they stayed there, I thought why not give it a try and see what happens.
Yes, this is a VERY forgiving formula and one that, given what my loaves endured, I might recommend to a new baker.
I have a large 36"oven so it wasn't easy task to pull them out from the back of the hot and steamy oven. And, can you imagine how much heat was lost during the retrieval process? However, they still cooked well, although I gave them some extra minutes. About quarter of the cut loaf was just a bit too battered so I gave a chunk to my eager dog and tossed the other part out.
Very rustic, indeed!
ZB: I also have both Bertinent books and never baked from either one. But JinxRemoving's post on "Cambridge Sourdough" inspired me and I though I would give the basic sourdough formula a try. [I am so easy -- I see a new bread recipe and I have to give it a try!] I love trying new methods as I always seem to learn something new. Anyway, the basic sourdough is very good. He uses a small amount of spelt for his whole grain addition, and it gives the finished loaves a nice, nutty taste. The crumb is very light and airy (I prefer a bit more chewy), and it has a moderate amount of tang. He uses a huge amount of very firm starter in his levain, shorter bulk fermentation, but a very long proof at cool temperatures. I would say that it's a very good, all purpose sourdough that would go well with most foods. If you give it a try, let me know what you think.
Thank you both again for feeling my pain!
Liz
Stunning looking bread! Another to try! ZB, you are just the best!
Andrew
Here's mine. Kind of homely loaves but like a geode prettier on the inside:
I too, added all the levain, and also threw the levain in the fridge for a night because I pooped out on making the dough... I also seemed to have been quite negligent on reading the recipe thuroughly, as I didn't realize you didn't do a final proof and turned on the oven a bit late thinking I had another whole proofing stage--I'm a little off my game this week obviously! :)
But all in all I think it turned out all right. It's a little thin-crusted and damp like the NYT bread--though in fairness I cut into it while it was still warm. I also could have baked it another five minutes or so--by the color and tap sound it was done, and it was, but a few more minutes might have given me a crunchier crust.
The taste is great, though. And I love the crumb. It's a cool method, pretty adaptable to any schedule. Always fun to try new approaches, and lots of inspiration here for sure!
I can sure empathize! But it all worked out and it sure seems to confirm that this is a great recipe with a lot of fudge facter. :o) Did you also notice it took a lot longer for the dough to rise? And I'd be interested to see what you think about how much you taste the rye.
You're reminding me to make this bread again. It was really a fun recipe and so good.
I can't really taste the rye. Actually, I was thinking when scaling out the ingredients that it's very close to the infamous columbia sourdough in content. Just a little mix of different flours for flavor, but I wouldn't call it a rye bread by any stretch (less than a cup in the entire recipe)....
Um. let me think about the rise... It didn't do a whole lot, for one thing I rose it in my DLX bowl which was to big. But, after 2 folds it definitely changed in textre (from gloopy to a soft elestic dough). Today when I got it out of the fridge it did get puffy after an hour or two (by then I had put it into a smaller bowl for retarding).
Breadnerd - Thanks for your take on the rye flavor. I think next time I make this I'm going to use whole rye and see how that compares.
zolablue
Lovely bread! I've tried to make it twice now and can't seem to get it right.
The first time the dough 'flowed' and the rise was about 3/4 inch. The second time I reduced the amount of water, but the rise wasn't much better. How do you manage to get such a good rise and such a great crumb? Any advice would be appreciated.
carthurjohn
How long did you mix the dough and at what speed? For me it really developed into a very elastic feeling dough at the end of the mix.
How long did you let the dough ferment? Did you give it enough time to double and also did you do the two folds? It is a very slow riser and as noted it took 17 hours for me from starting its fermentation to the time I was ready to bake it.
zolablue,
I mixed the dough for 15 mins (pausing every 5 mins) on 1.5 (I am based in UK and use an old Kenwood mixer with a dough hook). It was quite a silky, though very sticky dough at the end of that time.
To be honest I probably didn't let the dough ferment long enough for it to double in volume, though I left it for about 2-3 hours. Our kitchen is cold so for the second attempt I put it in the boiler cupbaord and even then it did not double in size. I did fold it twice and retard it in the fridge for about 12 hours.
The recipe does use a lot of water and I wonder how you managed to avoid the problem with flow or does this not happen when you let the dough double in volume?
Perhaps I need to be more patient with the ferment prior to retarding!
It sounds like you mixed it properly. I had the same problem, as did others above, with the dough not rising as Leader stated in that 3 - 4 hour period after mixing and before retarding. It just didn't happen. So all I can say is to allow it to ferment until it clearly has reached double or more and is obviously very well expanded no matter how long that takes. If your kitchen is especially cold that could take even longer.
As I mentioned previously, I was so worried about the lack of rise in the time Leader stated it should rise before retarding that I feared putting it in my refrigerator at all. So I put my dough in the pantry where it was about 62F degrees and total fermentation was about 17 hours and expanded very well by that time. I did not have any trouble with "flowing" dough. My dough was very soft and supple but not runny.
If someone else can give better advice please feel free!
zolablue,
Thanks for your advice, I'll just have to be more patient with the proving process and leave it for longer.
On the issue of flow, do you think it is worth knocking back the water content from 400g to 300g? Or does the longer proving time mean that this is not such a problem for some reason?
carthurjohn
I've made this bread three times (with better luck on transferring to the oven on the last two trys!) It is possible that your flour in the UK may be absorbing more water than our US flour. But, before I cut back on the water (since you need such a high hydration dough to achieve that open ciabatta-like crumb) I would first check to see if the gluten is properly developed during the kneading process. What is the protein content of your bread flour? ZB and I both used a flour with 14.2% protein, which could make a difference. After kneading did you give the dough the windowpane test? It really is the only objective way to see if the gluten is properly developed. Did you fold the dough twice at hourly intervals? That really improves the dough structure. And, like Zolablue mentioned, the rising time is a lot longer than Leader suggests. Since my kitchen is cool at this time, I let the bulk fermentation go a bit longer than suggested. Also try doing a really long overnight retardation in the refrigerator (or cool spot like ZB did). I think I have retarded this dough for up to 16 hours. It did rise some in the refrigerator, but never doubled. After taking the dough out, I've kept it at room temperature for up to 5 hours before baking. By then, it did double. All this long fermentation produced such a lovely sourdough taste. Keep trying as this bread is worth doing! It is perfect for panini sandwiches.
Good luck,
Liz
Liz,
Thanks for your thoughts on this. I am using Shipton Mill Organic Strong Plain Flour (which I normally use for baking bread) - but it doesn't quote the protein content on the bag and I can't find it on their website.
I did do the windowpane test and also the folding as specified. I think that I really have to increase the proving time - for however long it takes.
Regards,
carthurjohn
I think Fleur gave you some good advice. I was wondering about the flour as well. That high gluten flour we used makes a difference and even the King Arthur brand bread flour is much higher in protein level. That's a great place to start. I also agree with Fleur that the amount of water called for in the recipe is important to acheiving that open crumb.
Carthurjohn - I think we were posting at the same time. I tried to find the flour you are referring to on Shipton's site but they don't list protein levels. I did however find this information on Dan Lepard's site by one of the forum posters about some of the flours he uses so wondering if any of these are the one you also use:
Shipton Mill Flour:
· Finest Bakers White Bread Flour (protein content 12.2%),
· French White Type 55 (protein content 10.5%),
· Untreated Organic White Flour No 4 (protein content 11.8-12.2%),
· Italian Ciabatta Flour (protein content 14%) and
· Canadian Strong White Bread Flour (protein content 13.2%).
I just found this link, if it helps:
http://www.shipton-mill.com/ALL-PURPOSE-FLOUR.html
I've got the dough going through the fermenting 3-4 hour process at the moment. And made it with good ol normal ap wheat, rye starter, rye. And believe it or not, following the directions to the tee! My starter got revved up 8 pm last night and was ready to go at 6am (10hrs) but I started around 7am to mix up the dough. I wanted also to kill my mixer so I can buy a new one so into the bowl on a low setting with dough hook went my dough. I'm quite impressed with my cheapie mixer, let it work away. ( I don't think I can kill it in this manner.) I'm impressed with the dough generally and seems to be behaving (so far) just as Leader claims.
Now since I've got plenty of starter (ended up with 275g, ok, didn't folow the recipe to the T, thought the Levain was too dry so added a little water, then read it should be dry and then added more flour, so what! it sat overnight, rose better than expected and came out just fine.) Where was I? So I made up another batch of dough and added 2tsp of instant yeast. it's rising like crazy! I need bread for lunch and with the sd in there, should make a nice white sandwich round. It's already doubled at 10:30. And I'm folding the pierre-nury (tomorrow's bread). ...Loaf was out of oven at 12:00 noon looking lovely! (like the silesian loaf)
pierre-nury: top right is with added yeast
The folding and replacing the pierre-nury into an oiled bowl is a hastle. Works better to just leave it on the counter top and cover with a bowl, cause it ain't going nowhere. It's starting to lighten up after 4 hours but I'll give it one more fold before cold storage.
Next day: Took it out of fridge and didn't see much difference. Very cold fridge 4°c or 40°F. Will let it stand out 3-4 hrs, per recipe and bake at noon. I got to go pour some cement, be back later...
Oops, so much for following the recipe...got them in the oven around 3pm but not before gently folding them one more time, (crossing my fingers, but my gut instinct said they were overproofed sitting out for 6+ hours. Slid them immediately into a hot steamy oven and sat on the floor to watch. I wouldn't say they were lookers but they taste great! I was actually expecting more sour (like too much sour, they sat a full 24hours in the fridge) but they're not. I couldn't resist with all the popping noise to cut off a hot piece. Went digging around and found some whipping cream that was turning to butter but wasn't sour yet. Slathered it onto my wedge and bit into an almost burnt crunchy wonderful smelling, even closing my eyes, full of holes delight, wow, only to open my eyes and see my canine friend looking back at me (and then to my bread, gosh, how do they know it's so good?). The dark crust really makes this bread and in only 20 min. baking time! Next time I have to fold it, I'll try to make rolls using the pain de beaucaire method.
Mini O
Mini - Were you trying to post photos? I see nothing showing up if you did. Hope it isn't just me.
You are so funny. Your description sounded so good and reminded me how flavorful this bread is and I could not help but mix up the levain today to try it again. I'll mix the dough tomorrow but this time I'll use whole rye to compare the flavor difference.
Btw, I am wondering how long you all had to let your levain rise. Mine doubled in about 2 hours but I let it go longer just to see how much more it would grow and then popped into the fridge for overnight. My levains never rise according to Leader's time table, they're always so much faster and I'm not sure why that is.
I did erase the "doubles" that popped up in my "track" but that was hours later. I still have them on my desktop but the undertitles came through. funny... Do you suppose I erased photos in other threads?
ZB, to answer the levain Q, I think you got a very powerful sourdough and you have a feel for its ideal conditions, very good! I don't go out of my way to warm up my fed starter, it stands around 73°F in the kitchen. Overnight around 60°F on the porch. I think his times are average and you can bend them. The rye likes it cool, I can see why it is a favorite in this region so the longer times don't bother me. Don't let your shorter times bother you, make note in your books though, I love to use a red pen! :)
Pierre-nury
pierre-nury crumb
I've got this going again today, I really like this bread with butter & camenbaer cheese. I'm planning on baking this tomorrow with a final fold of cheese and grilled tomatoes and peppers inside, pizza spices, then cut into 2 inch sections and laid on edge with bottoms pinched together. We will see. Gotta pour some more cement today, my hands are ready for a sourdough facial, maybe smear some on and then the gloves! ....na, too kinky.
Mini O
Wow, wow, your bread looks fantastic! You are making me drool with that description of cheese, grilled tomatoes and peppers, etc. I have some exceptional goat cheese and I'm going to try that on it when I get this next batch baked.
About the levain again, I don't mind as much as long as I understand what point it is really supposed to be ready for the bread dough. I'm kind of anal that way. On the other hand bread recipes seem to be fairly dynamic for all the exquisite pondering we do over exact percentages.
I have to ask, what is all this cement pouring? Are you serious?! (Have I missed something...:o)
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