Scoring -- Obtaining a Proper Surface
There are many posts about scoring bread, but the vast majority seem to assume that the surface of the dough has reached the correct texture and consistency. Asking someone what is needed will often produce answers such as create surface tension, hold the lame a certain way, and slice swiftly. But what about producing the conditions under which these can be achieved?
I decided to ask the question another way, and I hope the experienced will reply. What is it that makes the surface less than optimal for scoring? And what are the fixes for these common mistakes? For example, I find a high hydration dough somewhat straightforward to shape, but I never seem to get the taut surfaces that I see in some of the photos on this site. Can I trace my issues back to the bulk fermentation? The pre-shaping? The original mixing? The proofing?
Is there something (or perhaps a few things) in the steps of bread making that commonly keeps a dough surface from being easily scored?
Thanks for any insights.
Ted
I, too, would like very much to see the answers to these questions.
Over the past few years of reading and participating on this site, the quality of my bread has improved by orders of magnitude. The last piece of the puzzle for me would be the appearance of my loaves. I'm slowly zeroing in on making great looking bread, but answers to Ted's questions above would be invaluable to accelerating my progress.
Thanks in advance,
--Mike
Hi,Ted.
I'll attempt to answer your question(s) with some relatively anecdotal answer:
YEAST/LEVAIN. I've found that commercial baker's yeast will maintain a predictable gluten structure, whereas sourdough starter is comparatively more voracious and will rapidly break down the gluten structure if allowed to ferment for too long.
COLD FINAL PROOFING. After shaping and placing the dough into proofing baskets, I found that final proofing dough in the refrigerator produces a thin dry crust around the dough which helps to maintain the shape of the dough for scoring. This is my go-to method.
OVER PROOFING. Over-proofing, particularly sourdough, results in a degraded gluten network. Over-proofed dough may be difficult to shape and score.
I hope my input is helpful. Good luck.
//Mark
This link to a KAF blog may be of interest to you. It's not a long read, less time than it would take to drink a cup of coffee.
http://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2017/08/04/scoring-bread-dough/?utm_content=ec170806-bread-recipes&go=EC170806_B1&trk_msg=AVL2GQT3V7L4F0TS2GS4VU45QG&t...
Hi Postal,
Thanks for the link, but did you carefully read my original post? This is just the sort of article that presumes a taut surface.
my current experience indicates that I get the optimum surface for scoring by a combination of the following:
- getting good gluten development in the dough early in the fermentation, so that the bubbles resulting from fermentation have a structure to contain them and the dough is set up for an even and consistent rise
I generally do an autolyse to begin gluten development, and then knead to at least medium window-pane in a two or three-stage process starting when mixing in the leaven and salt. I also add stretch-and-folds every 30 or 60 minutes, as I feel is needed by that particular dough.
- hitting somewhere close to the optimum level of fermentation prior to preshaping, so that the dough is light and airy, doesn't have the really strong elasticity from being underfermented, and yet doesn't have the slack, limpness of overfermentation
I most often use sourdough levain, and I do a rough guess on timing when planning the bake based on the sourdough rise table that was posted here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5381/sourdough-rise-time-table I try to get in at least a couple of hours at room temperature, and then complete the fermentation overnight in the 37 deg F fridge. Most of my bakes are high percentage whole grain, so I look for about 50% increase in volume by the time I pull it out in the morning.
- hitting the right balance of bench-rest between the pre-shape and final shaping for the gluten to relax enough to not fight back, but still have enough resistance to go taut when pulled
I do the preshape immediately from the fridge, since I find the dough easiest to work with then, and I most often use the same technique for preshape as for final shaping (pretty much the batard shaping method demonstrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEG1BjWroT0) I use a clean or very slightly damp surface for the preshape (no bench flour) and as little flour as possible for the final shape (usually a tsp or less), so that I can use the resistance of the surface for the most tautness in the skin.
- getting the outside of the dough dry enough for a light skin to form (which slices cleanly and easily), but not so dry that the skin is thick and so tough that it doesn't allow for oven-spring
I pay attention to the humidity in my kitchen, the hydration of the dough, and my planned method of baking to decide the best plan to proof that particular dough. Proofing in a couche will dry more than proofing in a banneton, which will dry more than proofing in banneton lined with parchment --- and I can vary whether I cover with a dry towel, or a wet towel, or enclose in a plastic bag, or even tuck it in to the microwave with a mug of steaming water for more or less drying.
- getting the optimum level of proofing, with being slightly under-proofed better than over-proofed
I look for about a 30-50% increase in volume, and I do use the "poke test" looking for a slow fill-in. If I see any indication of over-softness or deflation (over-proofing), then I have re-shaped and let it proof again for just a very short time. I still need a lot more experience to hit this point more often than not, but so far find that erring on the side of slightly under-proofing tends to give me enough tightness in the skin for a good score
- using a very, very sharp thin blade with a handle that fits my hand - and either adding a bit of water or oil to the blade if the dough seems really dry, or rubbing in a wee bit of flour to the skin if the surface seems too wet and sticky
While most folks use a lame (either home-made or purchased), I have some issues with my hands and wrists which make working with the thin-handled blades unsafe. I use a little curved paring knife, with a handle that fits me.
- having the dough at the best temperature for a firm texture
If my kitchen is really warm, and the dough has proofed warm (say 23 deg C or warmer), then I'll toss it in to the fridge for the last 30 minutes of proofing (or in to the freezer for 10 minutes), so that the very outside skin has cooled and tightened up for an easy score, but it hasn't been long enough to bring down the temperature inside the dough.
- building skills with kneading, fermenting, shaping, and scoring with lower hydration dough (say - 65% to 78%, depending on the flour types) since they are far more forgiving
The high-hydration dough is fun to play with, and I've had a few great loaves with them (including good scores), but those were more luck than anything else. Right now I'm keeping mostly in the lower ranges and am finding it much easier to slow down and really get the feel for the best approach at each step of the way.
These are the items that I'm currently working on, but I'm sure that those with far more experience could give you better tips. Hopefully this gives you some ideas to start with, though!
Many thanks, IceDemeter, for your suggestions and for the time it must have taken you to create your reply. This is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for. I have a few questions.
1) Do you mix by hand for the two or three-stage process? I am a fan of hand mixing, but I generally do not insert pauses. How long do you let the dough rest during these stages?
2) During your stretch-and-folds, does the dough noticeably tighten? In general, mine gets better structure, but does not seem to develop enough elasticity.
3) Do you judge the "optimum level of fermentation" by the feel of the dough? How long is your last stretch-and-fold before your pre-shaping? I tend to leave the dough alone for the final hour before pre-shaping, but maybe I ought to do another S&F sometime.
4) I have a couple of sourdough starters going and like the way they encourage the bread not to go stale so soon. Do your overnight bulk fermentations affect the flavor?
5) On the bench rest, I sometimes find the dough to have tightened up during pre-shaping and remain a bit tight even after the bench rest, so maybe I need to extend the bench rest, but I am always concerned that doing so will result in a loss of some surface tension.
6) For shaping, I have been trying a boule and have not yet ventured into batards (figuring I would get one shape down and then move on). Do you find a batard easier to work with?
7) For proofing I use a couple of bannetons coated with a mix of whole wheat and rice flour. The dough surface does not seem to get drier during the proofing (should it?). I put the bannetons in large plastic bags and tie them up. Should I merely cover the bannetons with towels? Also, my doughs seem to collapse a bit during the proofing and are nowhere near as tall and roundish when they come out of the banneton as they were after shaping and just before going in. Is that a sign of something?
8) I do the "poke test" too and have found it pretty effective. With sourdough starters and a cooler kitchen, proofing can take awhile.
9) Putting the dough in the refrigerator for the final thirty minutes of proofing sounds interesting, and I will have to give that a try.
Thanks again for all of your comments. As you indicated, perhaps the more experienced can (and will?) offer some more suggestions.
Ted
I actually used your post as an excuse to review my own processes and see where I need to focus on improvements, and it's always easier for me to organize my thoughts in writing. It works for me, but does make for some long posts!
In response to your questions:
1) Do you mix by hand for the two or three-stage process? I am a fan of hand mixing, but I generally do not insert pauses. How long do you let the dough rest during these stages?
I most often mix by hand (the exception being my pizza dough). I use my own interpretation / combination of the techniques used by Trevor J Wilson on his site http://www.breadwerx.com/ (specifically check out http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-get-open-crumb-from-stiff-dough-video/ and, for higher hydration, http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-mix-wet-dough/). I generally will knead / mix until it feels like the gluten is "fighting back" or some tears are appearing, then let it rest for 15 to 20 minutes for the gluten to relax before kneading again. I also go by how I want the dough to feel for hydration (I mill my own flour, and it can vary bake to bake), so will often add in extra water during the initial mix, or the second (or sometimes 3rd round, if I didn't get it to medium window-pane before it started feeling too stiff).
2) During your stretch-and-folds, does the dough noticeably tighten? In general, mine gets better structure, but does not seem to develop enough elasticity.
I find that the stretch-and-folds give better structure to the dough, but don't necessarily develop elasticity. What I am trying to accomplish with the stretch-and-folds is really to tighten up the side "skin" of the dough, and get a start on creating the "envelope" to contain the rise. It is pretty rare for me to do a complete bulk fermentation at room temperature or warmer, so I most often restrict the stretch-and-folds to the first couple of hours prior to refrigeration.
3) Do you judge the "optimum level of fermentation" by the feel of the dough? How long is your last stretch-and-fold before your pre-shaping? I tend to leave the dough alone for the final hour before pre-shaping, but maybe I ought to do another S&F sometime.
My "optimum" level of fermentation is usually around 50% volume increase, feels airy to the touch (think of a perfectly-filled water balloon), has consistent bubbles showing all up the sides and on the bottom (I ferment in a clear plastic container with straight sides, so that I can easily see what it is doing), and has the top surface taut and slightly domed down to the sides (it may even still show the marks from the last stretch-and-fold). I strongly endorse a suggestion I first saw from Mini Oven to slice open the dough at various stages of fermentation to see what is going on (just slap it back together again to let it keep fermenting), and make notes on what it looks and feels like on the outside by the time it gets to even bubbles throughout the dough. I also made a point of over-fermenting some dough (took it to the point of more than doubled and starting to collapse) so that I could observe what was going on and better judge future bakes to be able to recognize and respond to the visual cues that the dough was fermenting more than I wanted.
4) I have a couple of sourdough starters going and like the way they encourage the bread not to go stale so soon. Do your overnight bulk fermentations affect the flavor?
I find that temperature variations throughout the preparation have a huge influence on the final flavour. I like a lot of sourness in my loaves (more than most folks do), so I do a 3-stage levain build at very warm temps (90ish F) to build up a high LAB and yeast population, and then use the overnight refrigerated ferment to slow down the yeast activity and give the extra bacteria time to build up more acid. If I did a different levain build, then there wouldn't be as much bacteria to create the lactic and acetic acids, so there would not be as much sour going on.
5) On the bench rest, I sometimes find the dough to have tightened up during pre-shaping and remain a bit tight even after the bench rest, so maybe I need to extend the bench rest, but I am always concerned that doing so will result in a loss of some surface tension.
I think that the purpose of the preshape is to create the outer tension, and the rest should be only long enough for the gluten to relax to the point that further manipulation is not going to tear it (and lessen the tension). Since I'm working with a cold dough, it takes time for it to warm to room temperature, and so I have to rest it a bit longer for the gluten to both warm and relax. If you're giving it just enough time for the gluten to not feel like it is fighting you, then you are resting it long enough.
6) For shaping, I have been trying a boule and have not yet ventured into batards (figuring I would get one shape down and then move on). Do you find a batard easier to work with?
I absolutely agree that it's best to work with one shape at first, and then work your way on to the others! I chose the same idea, but started with the batard (actually, closer to just "loaf" in my case) because it is the most practical one for my use of the bread (we do sandwiches, and the "loaf" slices are easier to work with - and fit in my toaster!). I have tried the boule a couple of times, and honestly found it to be by far the easiest one to get a tight skin on. Another really good shaping technique is demonstrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmxDKuGLWuE
7) For proofing I use a couple of bannetons coated with a mix of whole wheat and rice flour. The dough surface does not seem to get drier during the proofing (should it?). I put the bannetons in large plastic bags and tie them up. Should I merely cover the bannetons with towels?
The banneton itself is a dry material which should "wick away" some of the moisture from the surface of the dough, aided by the flour (which should also absorb moisture). By enclosing the entire thing in a plastic bag, you are essentially holding in any moisture that is "wicked out" and not allowing it to evaporate. This is a good thing with a low hydration dough or a very dry kitchen, but can work against you if you are trying to get a more dry "skin" happening. You might find that using a shower cap just covering the top of the banneton, or experimenting with dry or damp towels (depending on your kitchen humidity) will hold in the moisture on the top surface, while allowing the material of the banneton to dry out the rest of the dough just enough for you to get a better result.
Also, my doughs seem to collapse a bit during the proofing and are nowhere near as tall and roundish when they come out of the banneton as they were after shaping and just before going in. Is that a sign of something?
THIS is most likely to be the main issue that you are dealing with. The dough should be expanding during proof (at least 30-50% by volume), and most certainly should not be deflating. To me, this is a sure sign of over-proofing, where the dough has reached the maximum possible expansion and is now starting to deflate. If it feels like a deflating balloon, or there are any signs of the outer skin breaking (small holes or tears), then you can be positive that it is over-proofed. When you score this dough, the skin is slack and will pucker as you cut, and it will often just sort of ooze back together right away. After baking, it might look stretched, but there won't be ears or much (if any) oven-spring.
8) I do the "poke test" too and have found it pretty effective. With sourdough starters and a cooler kitchen, proofing can take awhile.
That's where I really like the sourdough rise table that I linked to in my first response, since I can use my actual room temperature and the amount of prefermented flour to get a pretty solid idea of how that recipe is going to work in my kitchen that day. I still watch the dough and not the clock (since it can sometimes surprise me), but I find it to be far closer to actual results than the timing listed in any recipe that I've tried.
Thanks for giving me the reason and opportunity to verbalize and organize my own thoughts and process - I know that it'll give me better results going forward!
Keep baking happy, Laurie
Hi Laurie,
From my first reply: "Also, my doughs seem to collapse a bit during the proofing and are nowhere near as tall and roundish when they come out of the banneton as they were after shaping and just before going in. Is that a sign of something?"
I should have been a bit more detailed on this comment. The loaves expand in the bannetons, and I definitely see fewer exposed rings on the sides of the banneton at the end than at the beginning of the proofing. What I meant (and was not clear about in referring to collapsing) was that the dough shape has less vertical height when it comes out of the banneton and is sitting on the counter than when I did the final shaping and put it into the banneton.
Shouldn't a loaf that expands when proofing retain most of that expansion when it exits the banneton? That would make the loaf going into the oven taller than the final shaped loaf, bit I am experiencing just the opposite. Hope this clarifies what I meant by collapsing. Let me know if it does not.
Thanks again for your suggestions. I looked back through my sets of photos from various bakes (I try to photo each stage), and one of my best scoring occurred on a loaf that had been overnight fermented in the fridge.
Ted
Sorry for misunderstanding what you meant!
I think that if you spend some time watching videos, even the professionals have their dough spread out when they release it from the banneton and place it on to the stone or in to a combo cooker or dutch oven for baking. The sides of the dough don't dry out as much as the top, and so don't maintain the initial strength of the shape --- and, well, gravity happens... When it spreads out, it isn't really that it is "collapsing" or losing any of the volume gained during the proof. What is happening is a change in shape for a larger bottom surface area and lower side surface area. Think of it as a water balloon, that is going to look totally different when it is sitting flat on the counter than it looks when it is sitting in a fitted bowl or when it is suspended in air - the actual volume doesn't change when you move it, just the outward shape does.
You generally won't see as much spread from a lower hydration dough or one that proofed on a couche, because those are dry enough to keep some side strength.
Hope to see your next bake soon!
The day was humid, so I held back some water, but the hydration was still 76-77%. Trevor Wilson's mixing method appeals to me too, and I had already seen many of his videos, which are great. I applied that and got a better gluten formation. In addition, the kitchen was nice and comfy (76 F all morning, which is about 24 C), and proofing was going along well, so after nearly three hours I put the loaves in bannetons into the fridge for the final twenty minutes. As for scoring, I probably should have gone a bit deeper. The loaf with the cross-hatch on top was baked on a stone, while the other was in a Dutch oven.
Texture and taste are good. Not easy to get large holes with whole wheat, but there are some (and I value holes more in my ciabatta). You asked about the next bake, so here it is. Thanks for your interest and suggestions.
Seriously, that is my absolute favourite crumb - the one that I strive for - and it really looks like you hit the fermentation / proofing level just right. The slightly larger holes around the top crust of the one loaf seem likely to be from you just not degassing that piece of dough as firmly when shaping. Does that sound like what you remember about that part of the bake?
It's interesting that you seem to get more oven spring using the stone and external steam. It makes me wonder what it is about your dutch oven that might be allowing the top crust to "set" faster and limit the rise.
I think you're right that the only thing left for you to modify is the depth and angle of the score, to see if you can't get a more open grigne. That would be purely for aesthetic reasons, though, and your own personal preference.
Nice job, and thanks again for sharing!
"It's interesting that you seem to get more oven spring using the stone and external steam. It makes me wonder what it is about your dutch oven that might be allowing the top crust to 'set' faster and limit the rise."
Every time I bake two loaves, one goes in the Dutch oven and the other sits on a stone. And each time there is some debris on the underside of the Dutch oven lid, so I know that the initial oven spring is limited by the height of the Dutch oven. (It is a 4 quart Lodge cast iron model.)
As for the stone and steam, I use a couple of pie pans of lava rocks that are heated along with the stone. A minute or so before putting the loaf into the oven, I pour hot water over one pan of rocks, and just after putting the loaf into the oven, I pour hot water over the other pan of lava rocks. That seems to work for creating sufficient steam.