August 4, 2017 - 11:11am
What did I do wrong?
I tried to do a coconut-bun for a keto-burger, but it didn't turn out as I expected.
At first, it looked and felt fine, but once you firmly grab it like you would a normal burger, it felt soggy and fragile.
Here is the list of the exact ingredients I used for 3 buns(10cm diameter, 2cm height):
- 60g Coconut flour
- 30g margarine
- 3 large eggs
- 1 tsp baking powder
- 1 tsp Dried Rosemary
- 1 tsp garlic&pepper powder
- 1/4 tsp salt
- 180g water
Baked for about 20 minutes at 175C
I think I used too much water, and instead of water I should have used 100g of milk, and baked it for at least 30min.
What do you think?
Maybe a bit of yeast so it uses up the sugar from milk and coconut flour?
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The amounts of liquid (eggs and water) to flour make this look more like either an omelet or a thick crepe.
Upon googling "coconut bun for ketoburger" I came up with this site that has a similar recipe except for the water.
https://www.mypcoskitchen.com/ultimate-keto-buns/
The buns shown were much drier looking-more bun-like.
Good luck!
Yes, I'm aware of that recipe.
I tried my own specifically to avoid using almond flour, which is 3 times more expensive than coconut flour, which is already more expensive than the regular flour.
Do you have anything useful to add?
Your last comment was rather rude. I see by your profile that this is your first post. Generally, you will get lots of help from a lot of great folks on this forum when questions and answers are respectful. Let's call this a mulligan and start over.
If you re-read my initial response, I did indicate it was a SIMILAR recipe and my point was it had a very different level of hydration than your recipe. I would recommend you try changing your recipe to decrease the hydration in a manner similar.
Good luck.
I sincerely doubt that, as it has been two days and not a single comment on anything I said - milk, yeast, nature of coconut flour - on a freaking baking forum.
Not a single suggestion about anything!
Just a lazy post about some other recipe that uses a completely different flour.
Apparently you do not golf. From the Google dictionary, in case you wondered what I meant:
mul·li·gan
ˈməliɡən/
noun
North American
(in informal golf) an extra stroke allowed after a poor shot, not counted on the scorecard.
MODERN TRANSLATION: do-over, re-set
“Generally, you will get lots of help from a lot of great folks on this forum when questions and answers are respectful”
Let me re-phrase this negatively:
Generally, you will get NO help from a lot of great folks on this forum when:
1.Questions and answers are rude or disrespectful
2. The poster demonstrates a desire to be spoonfed
3. The original poster shows an unwillingness to do a simple search or simple experimentation.
And finally:
4. No one will answer a question if they feel they have no expertise in the matter.
“it has been two days and not a single comment on anything I said - milk, yeast, nature of coconut flour - on a freaking baking forum.”
You received a response and the response was even repeated a second time. People here have expertise on BREAD baking-the high carb variety. The comments/response you received were general comments about how the ingredients interact with the listed proportions and the hydration level (see below). You will probably receive more expertise and help from folks on a keto diet, low carb or bodybuilding forum on how to make low carb products than on a bread baking forum that is about traditional high carb baking.(I refrained from saying "Duh")
The product and ingredient you are asking about is a specialized product with specialized ingredients that are not generally seen in mainstream baking and the best expertise would come from people familiar with them. Would you ask your dentist to do heart surgery? He is a doctor, after all. Would you be angry at him if he declined to do it? Go to the specialists.
“Not a single suggestion about anything!”
Read the answers again. Both times you were given a significant suggestion. Both times it was suggested that you had too much water (that is what is meant by hydration),especially when it was compared to the sample recipe that had almond flour as an ingredient. To say it more simply: cut down the amount of water and try making the rolls again.
Just a lazy post about some other recipe
The responder (me) did a google search for a SIMILAR recipe, identified it as SIMILAR and made suggestions based on general baking expertise and limited exposure to lowcarb products. Characterizing my response as lazy was very denigrating. If you don’t know what that means-try a Google search. I won't chew your food for you.
I hope this response is much more helpful to you because it must be tough to live in your world. Don’t you want your world to be a better place?
There is no need for you to respond to this post (or even post again) if there is any rudeness, disrespect, denigration or namecalling involved. You get what you give- but you got it a lot more politely here.
Good Luck and good bye
@clazar123 .... I just started reading this thread and I am just blown away with how you responded to the OP. I would love to have your tact and grace :)
But like clazar123 correctly stated, I have no expertise in this matter and rather than offer bogus advice I kept quiet. When I'm of use to anyone I'll chime in. I've had some questions left unanswered but the vast majority of my questions have been answered and the kind folk here have been more than generous. I'm only where I am today because of this site.
I actually came back to the question to see if anyone had found you an answer and I see that clazar123 has gone out of their way to help you.
Flour = 100% and everything else is in relation to the flour
You already have 50% margarine and that's before you include the eggs (large!) and water which is 300%
In a regular dough recipe everything will be a fraction of the flour. In this recipe the flour seems to be a fraction of the liquids. I'm surprised this held together at all.
Hope this helps.
Well, this recipe would be impossible without the silicon molds, which I specially ordered from Amazon for this purpose.
So, basically you are saying that I should completely eliminate all liquids?
And it would be impossible to get any kind of rise, even if I add a bit of yeast?
So, the yeast would not feed on the sugar that is in the coconut flour and in, let's sat, 30g of milk?
If I was tackling this recipe I'd get a tried and tested one first. Perhaps use the almond one and simply swap the almond for coconut. Then I'd take it from there. It might not be perfect at first but it'll be a start and with some trial and error I'd slowly get it the way I'd like it.
But what I'd do for the recipe you have is double the flour as I'd lower the margarine, eggs and water and you won't have enough to make a few buns.
I wouldn't want to give you an exact recipe before I've tried it. But here is what I'd do... Just my thoughts only!
120g coconut flour (100%)
Fat: 5%
1 small egg
Spices according to taste
Baking powder
1/4 tsp salt
About 60g milk with half tsp of lemon juice or cider vinegar added and mixed
Rub the margarine into the coconut flour. Mix the rest of the dry ingredients together and add to the flour and mix. Add the beaten egg on top and then slowly add the milk until you get a consistency you like. Mix well. Add to the mold etc.
I have never even attempted anything like this. I'm only showing you how I'd tackle a recipe like this with no other references. I'm thinking it might need something else because of the lack of gluten but won't know till I've tried it. Ideally I'd follow another similar recipe and do a swap for coconut flour.
Actually, that was a recipe from the almond one, only halved because 3 buns instead of 6.
It might be interesting to use an electric mixer on high and beat the eggs with the salt and water until frothy foamy eventually folding in the blended dry ingredients carefully yet quickly. This might give you piled on foam to bake.
I would not advise using yeast when little or no carbohydrates are present for food. Not sure how to add the margarine into this recipe. Tempted just to smear the molds with some of it. I prefer butter or drippings.
/sunflower oil instead of butter..
I did use high-speed mixer.
that could be the difference. They can act very differently.
I like the recipe suggested at the top of the thread... Think I'll give it a whirl. I don't have silicone molds for buns but I have them for waffles. I think the higher temp is also important.
This is very similar to GF baking in that there is nothing present except eggs to hold a structure. There needs to be a structural element to hold the shape and soak up the liquids and in GF baking that would be xanthan gum, pectin, ground flax seed,chia seed or psyllium husks. But if you add too much of any of these, the texture will become gummy. So pick one out that meets your low carb needs and try it out. With that little amount of dough I would start with about 1/2 tsp or less xanthan gum or chia seeds or no more than 1 tsp of ground flax seeds/psyllium husks.
Then why would this recipe have more water than there is flour?
I would have set it up like this:
Ingredients for 3 buns:
Psyllium husk is tremendously absorbent. (Note: whole husk is indicated here. There is a "Ground psyllium" that is like a fine powder. You would use a LOT less psyllium powder for thickener than the husks)
I just did a brief experiment I had done before and I'm amazed at psyllium absorption power all over. DISCLAIMER: All measurements are measured real time and on my kitchen scale-not from a list of equivalents somewhere
1 tbsp. psyllium husks = 7 g
1 tbsp. water = 12 g
I added water 1 tbsp. at a time to the psyllium husks and stirred it in and waited just a few minutes after each stir. I stopped the experiment at 10 tbsp.(113g by scale measure) of water. After just a few minutes wait, I still hadn't diluted the psyllium gel much past a thick stringy goo stage. As it sat a few more minutes, it became almost rubbery. This was by adding 16 x water weight (10 times by volume-tbsp.) !
113/7=16.14
When using psyllium in a recipe like this, always add the psyllium to the other dry ingredients first before adding the liquid. Otherwise the dry ingredients will never have a chance to grab some water to hydrate.
That is how the gums (and psyllium/chia/gr.flax) add structure to GF baked goods. It provides a stringy network that is capable of holding onto/trapping the gases produced (by yeast or other leaveners) so that they are still inside the dough and can expand to raise and fluff the dough when it hits the oven heat.
Viola!
So try the recipe as written first to establish a baseline of the product. @ factors to control in this experiment-ingredient temperature and time the dough soaks before baking. My recommendation is to have ingredients at room temp, mix, decide a setting time before baking and write that down. (5 minutes? 10 minutes?-give the dough time to thicken just a bit). If you allow it to thicken too much, it will become very rubbery and not expand in the oven.
Good luck!
I'm gonna try with flax powder first, just bought it, it is 4 times less expensive than psyllium powder.
A pic is worth a thousand words.
This is how psyllium husks look at the 16x by wt hydration and sitting for an hour. That is not dripping, it is being pulled. Stringy, rubbery structure.
Whatever product you use, if it is finely ground into a powder, you will need to use much less than either a coarsely ground or whole product. Psyllium Powder almost looks like talc, it is so finely textured. I would use 1/4 the amount or perhaps even less than the whole husk.
I have never seen flax powder so I don't know the texture or absorbency. You will have to experiment. I never got around to using it for my GF experience. I don't know if it is as rubbery as psyllium. Hodgsen Mills makes xanthan gum in little, single-use packets if you want to experiment with that product and it is available.
Vast improvement!
Just did them again; very sturdy buns with the following tweaks to the recipe:
Baked for 30min at 175C.
Of course, they are not fluffy like normal buns but I think that's impossible without the psyllium powder, which is inordinately expensive where I live.
I added 10g of psyllium husk to the recipe below(the successful one with flaxseed) and got absolutely no rise whatsoever.
Do you have any idea what could be the problem?
If you increase ability to trap gasses, they will be fluffier.
MiniOven mentioned beating the egg whites or the eggs. Actually, that is a good idea. If you beat the egg whites to a firm (not dry/stiff ) peak and then fold them into the rest of the ingredients, all those trapped bubbles may help fluff the texture.
You are correct about the psyllium husk. It does provide more structure than ground flax seed. I have found it in bulk bins in a well-stocked health food store and while the "by-the-pound" price sounds high, you only need a few ounces for multiple bakes, since it is so light. It is also the same product in unflavored Metamucil (and generics) in the "Colon Health" section of a pharmacy. These are both USA references. What part of the world do you live that it is so expensive? It is readily available online but shipping is usually more expensive than the product.
I tried this recipe this am. I substituted almond flour for coconut flour as it was what I had in the cupboard. I also substituted the psyllium for the flax (didn't use any flax). I'm not sure if that is what you intended but it is what I did with this recipe:
Almond Flour 50g
Psyllium 10g
Baking Powder 1 tsp
Salt 1/4 tsp
Mix dry ingredients together and then add wet:
Milk 70 g
Eggs 2 (room temp)
Oil 30g
Mix all together with a whisk and let sit for 10 min to give psyllium time to absorb liquid and thicken the batter. After 10 minutes it was like a thick pancake batter-still pourable but sheets off the spoon.
Bake 27 min at 350F(175C) in well oiled muffin pans. This actually made 4 muffins for me. I only had jumbo muffin tins-not the nice muffin top pan you had.
I made 1 muffin as per recipe above.
To the remaining dough, I added 1 tsp cider vinegar and 1/2 tsp baking soda. I wanted to see what the difference was.
The muffins are cooling as I type. I am going to try and send pictures but for some reason my internet is wonky today and pics just are not going. They may be doing maintenance on it somewhere in my area and then it just doesn't handle larger files. I will send later.
OBSERVATIONS:
I initially made a batch and got the in the oven before I realized I had not put in the eggs. Grrr! They actually came out rather flat, a little oily tasting and definitely salty. The 2 muffins with vinegar and baking soda were much darker than the other. Interesting. So I tried again, after a second cup of coffee.
The batter with the eggs was definitely more liquid. I allowed it to sit for 10 minutes to allow the psyllium time to absorb the liquid. In 10 minutes it went from a thin pouring stream off the spoon to a nice sheeting off the spoon like a thick pancake batter. This recipe with the eggs made 4 muffins. I used a jumbo muffin tin filled only 1/3 full. I was trying to emulate a muffintop pan thickness such as you had. Interestingly enough, the vinegar/baking soda muffins darkened considerably more than the one with just baking powder. I did get a nicer puff on all of them but the vinegar/baking soda did not have any more than the baking powder so I prob. would not add it next time. Again, I think too salty but I will taste them when cooled to see if there is a difference.
I am still working on my including pics but some observations:
Using just psyllium (no flax) worked well.
Ingredients at room temp. If eggs are cold, just pop them into a bowl of hot water while you measure out all the other ingredients.
Beat the eggs before adding to help distribute theis structure-forming protein.
Mix dry ingredients and wet ingredients separately. Then mix together.
Make sure your baking powder is fresh! It can inactivate with age.
Let batter sit for 10 minutes before putting into mold so the psyllium can absorb water and gel a bit.
Bake in preheated oven.
Cool slightly before taking out of mold to allow the structure to "set" (like an angel food cake)
FINALLY THE PICS MOVED! But now my icons have disappeared. I will start a new post for pics.
Here is a pic of the side of the muffins. The muffins on the right (flatter) have no eggs. Notice that the darker ones have vinegar/baking soda:
Top picture is the final muffins using above recipe. No flax seed for structure-just psyllium. The muffins on the left have eggs and on the right (flatter) have no eggs. Browner muffins have vinegar and baking soda (both batches). Almond meal was used as I don't have coconut flour here.
Taste/texture
As they cooled/dried a bit, the salt level seemed ok. Flavor is good-nutty-almondy. They are not too bad,texture-wise. Perhaps spongey rather than soft. Just cooled off out of the oven, they do not crumble and would probably do well to hold sandwich ingredients.
So technique is important:
1. Mixing order (all wet/all dry),
2. Room temp, well-beaten eggs ( I used a whisk) and
3. Wait time after mixing.
Try it with coconut flour and see what happens, using the technique described. Flax is optional to me. It works with just psyllium so I would leave the flax out unless there is a nutrient gain to be had.
Yes, the only thing from that list that I did is number one.
Will try it tomorrow then with the new procedure.
Btw, I used cold milk, that would have to be room temperature too?
I noticed that a lot of people use warm water instead..
Wow, your buns are twice as thick, just the way I wanted mine to turn out!
Yesterday I bought a lot of coconut flour, flaxseed powder, and psyllium husk powder, so in order to get a rise out of my keto buns, would this be finally correct, based on your observations:
Ingredients for 3 buns, 10cm diameter each.
• 50g coconut flour
• 30g flaxseed
• 14g psyllium husk powder
• 1 tsp baking powder
• 1 tbsp cider vinegar
• 1g salt
• 50g milk
• 3 large eggs
• 40g sunflower oil
• sesame seeds(sprinkled after pouring into molds)
So, I would do them like before, but first blend the eggs, and then pour in all the wet ingredients, blend those and THEN add all the dry ingredients?
And then let it all sit for 10 minutes, usually I just put the mass immediately into the molds and then into oven.
So, it's not that the recipe was wrong, it was the whole procedure that needs to be tackled delicately?
According to My Fitness Pal (I track my food every day on this app)
4 servings per recipe (my recipe above using almond flour and 1%milk)
CALORIES: 182 cal/muffin
CARBS: 5.4 g /muffin
FAT: 16.3g/muffin
PROTEIN: 6.4 g/muffin
Technique matters! All these ingredients change their nature depending on how they are handled and transformed during the process.
Your recipe is different than what I posted.
50g coconut flour ( I used almond flour)
• 30g flaxseed (I did not add any flax)
• 14g psyllium husk powder (I used 10g psyllium)
• 1 tsp baking powder
• 1 tbsp cider vinegar (No benefit by itself except flavor-I wouldn't add) (I added 1 tsp to remaining batter after pouring 1 muffin into tin-very different ratio)
• 1g salt (I added 2 g salt to whole recipe)
• 50g milk (I used 70 g 1% milk-it was cold-should have been room temp)
• 3 large eggs (I used 2 large eggs at room temp and well whisked)
• 40g sunflower oil (I used 30 g veg.oil)
Method:
Mix wet ingredients well in 1 bowl
Mix dry ingredients in separate bowl
Mix wet and dry together
Let sit 10 minutes in bowl to thicken slightly
Pour into molds
Bake 25-30 minutes til browned
Let sit in pan for 5-10 minutes to cool to lukewarm before removing from pan.
I used the recipe you posted above with the exception of no flax seed (just forgot) and almond flour instead of coconut flour as it is what I had on hand. The recipe you just posted has a lot of different ratios. Settle on 1 recipe to try. Next bake, just change 1 thing and try again. That is the only way to develop what you want.
I have never made low carb muffins or baked with almond flour. I am basing my development of this muffin on general baking principals. When you want to develop a product, you have to know how the ingredients behave under different conditions and how to coax different behaviors out of them. That is the art and science of baking whether it is bread, desserts, GF, low carb or anything. This type of product is a specialty and I have just a little experience in it.
TECHNIQUE IS IMPORTANT!
Yes, the recipe is I think the same, I just added mass to ingredients in order to fully fill all the molds.
I used such tweaks before and it made no difference.
But, now I will use different technique to see how it goes. I will try it with warm water too instead of milk.
And may have a different outcome. I would stay with 2 eggs, keep the milk or water at 70g, and keep the oil at 30g as at 30 g oil, they actually tasted/felt a little oily.
Warm water is absorbed faster by the psyllium and it may thicken faster and may become gummy (since you are increasing it). A little goes a long way and now you are adding flax which may thicken it also. The sitting time might be less before it thickens adequately.
The flax MAY make them a bit more crumbly-not sure. It will be interesting to see.
OK, they just finished baking, each weighs between 100-110g, and 10cm in diameter, they did rise a bit from the previous ones, by about half a centimeter -
Like previous ones, they smell and taste amazing(I always add cinnamon), and they are very sturdy. Perfect for sandwiches and burgers. So, for all intents and purposes, they are suitable for what I wanted - keto "bread" substitute. They honestly taste better than any bread I could buy in a store, and I can use them for many purposes.
However, I do wish to get the fluffy, risen bun you got, since I have all the ingredients now.
I followed your instructions closely: blended the eggs, then added all the wet ingredients, and then added the mixed dry ingredients, totaling to:
• 50g coconut flour
• 30g flaxseed
• 15g psyllium husk powder
• 1 tsp baking powder
• 1 tbsp cider vinegar
• 1g salt
• 70g warm water
• 3 large eggs
• 40g sunflower oil
Then I waited for about 8-9 minutes. The mass was just the right consistency: not wet, not dry and not sticky.
Like I said, there is nothing wrong with the result per se, but if you would be willing to offer a recipe that I can completely replicate to get high-risen, fluffy buns, just to see if I can do it.
Here are the ingredients I have now in bulk: coconut flour, flaxseed flour, psyllium husk powder, sunflower oil, salt, cider vinegar, milk, eggs, cheese.
So, if you have an old reliable recipe that you can just throw in to achieve that result, just copypaste it here.
The total pouring mass should be about 420g, because each mold can contain 140g, that's why added more ingredients this time.
I really appreciate your help!
I think the recipe and technique work. However, the dough may need a deeper pan than the one you are using so it can climb the sides of the pan. I used a jumbo muffin pan but a muffin is tapered with the top being wider than the bottom. You may want to try and find some straight-sided cans that are not coated on the inside to use as forms. For holidays a few years ago, I went to the canned good section and found that the cans of waterchestnuts were the perfect size for miniature,short holiday breads. They were about 4 inches in diameter and straight-sided-about the size of crumpet rings but they need a bottom. The water chestnut cans would be a perfect size for your buns and allow the bun to creep up the side of the can and perhaps be taller.
So my next suggestion is to use the current recipe and technique but use a taller baking container.
This is how a product is created. I don't have any formulas for this type of product. I am a home baker that has a good base of baking knowledge and have dabbled in gluten free baked goods. Nutrition is a particular interest.
Good luck. Keep going.
These buns (both puffy and flatter ones) were both quite soft and spongey the next day. They toasted well and were quite good but they did have an oily sheen when I split them or handled them. I would guess the oil ratio could be decreased by 25-40% and still have a nice bun. I wasn't happy with the calorie count of each bun and would probably do that to decrease the calories. These may be low carb but they aren't low cal!
I have no problem with oiliness, after I bake mine I always put them on a paper towel sheet, and they are as good as new for the following 2 days. Didn't notice any oiliness after I left them for the night on the paper, as well as when I cut them in half. They are so sturdy yet soft, almost no crumbs at all.
That is from the latest increased oil recipe I put here. High-cal is intentional if you only eat these sandwiches/burgers. Even with these I am still in a caloric deficit.
I actually bought a specialty bread in the store, mine is leagues ahead: in taste, smell, nutrition, and pricing. And this was like 3 times more expensive than any other bread in the store, per mass.
Never gonna by any kind of bread again!
I would dare say that I made the perfect bread, except for the fluffiness, but I'll just have to buy a new mold for that, I would say 14cm diameter and 3cm depth would be perfect, but I just can't find such silicone mold yet.
Fabulous information in this thread... but, just curious, has anyone tried using yeast as leavening? It sounds like the Psyllium Husk Powder might make the dough stretchy enough to react to the yeast? or vital wheat gluten? I'm experimenting to make some low carb yeast bread...
Yeast needs carbs for food to digest. I'm not sure that there would be enough food for the yeast to be active enough to produce CO2.
I have experimented further and this is the final recipe for amazing flaxseed bread:
Blend wet and dry ingredients separately. Add the two mixtures to produce bread batter. Pour into silicone mold. Bake for 35min at 175C.
The texture is very bread-like now, not dense, and it tastes amazing. Nothing that you can buy in a store, no matter how expensive it is.
Is there any almond or coconut flour meant to be in this recipe?
Are the flax seeds whole or ground? 130g whole seed? OR 130g flaxmeal?