Preshaping sourdoughs
Hi there - Im new to the forum and am as obsessed as you all are with making delicious bread. I do have a question. When pre-shaping my bread i am flummoxed by the number of different techniques.
I am currently using the S + F technique (4 X S + F every 30 minutes, bulk and then divide.....) and and am wondering if i can use that technique (a kind of traditional envelope style) on my pre-shape (i do it on my shape before rotating the ball to create tension). My shaping is good and i get a great tension but my question is how important is the pre-shape.
Do i look for good tension in the pre-shape by doing the same series of folds i do in shaping i.e.fold bottom to top, right to left, left to right, top to bottom and flip. After which i leave to bench rest and repeat in shaping but create more tension in shaping by pulling boule towards me after folds?.....
Some people seem to simply use their scraper to create a loose form in pre-shape, others use the envelope technique, while some use their hands to fold dough underneath itself. I am most comfortable using hand and scraper and doing bottom to top, left to right, right to left, top to bottom, flip over and rotate dough to create tension. So can i use that for both pre-shaping and shaping?
thanks for the advice
moray
I think you should experiment with all these methods. When I first started doing this I looked at Hamelman's shaping videos online over and over and preshaped his way. Over time I've ended up with an SFBI online video method of pulling the dough scraper around the dough on an unfloured deck to build tension. I'm not sure there's a dramatic difference between the two (and other methods), but the SFBI method seems to make avoiding excessive degassing more under my control. There are quite a few shaping methods, and most seem to work well.
Thanks for that fiomatic - ive seen both those videos and currently use the SFBI method. However, while it works well you need a certain amount of space which i dont really have. The folding/envelope method - which i use for shaping - on the otherhand is great in small spaces - i kind of like wildyeastsusans preshaping method @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IbCylsGNL0 without the degassing part. So basically are you saying it doesnt really matter what method i use as long as i minimise degassing while creating some structural tension before bench rest and shaping? Or, if i get good tension on shaping does structural pre-shaping really matter?
but my understanding is that you choose your method of pre-shaping and shaping for the same reasons that you choose your hydration level and method / timing of gluten development - to get the crumb type that you prefer.
So - if you want a light and airy crumb with regular, smaller holes (closer to a sandwich type loaf), then you choose a lower hydration, aggressive gluten formation, and will use a firm hand to de-gas the dough during pre-shaping and then again during final shaping. The goal is to get rid of any large air pockets that were created during fermentation and have the final rise of the dough be fairly uniform and supported by the strong gluten structure.
If, on the other hand, you want an open crumb with irregular and larger holes (along the lines of the Tartine style), then you choose a higher hydration, with gluten development right at the initial mix, followed by touching the dough less and less with a lighter and lighter hand. When it comes to pre-shaping, you want to avoid de-gassing as much as possible, and so many choose to just create tension on the outer skin using their hands or scraper or both and pulling against the bench. Their final shaping method will also use a light touch - more often a swift but gentle "stitching" and then pulling against the bench, and any folding done very gently.
The professionals shown in videos are often looking for a crumb that is about mid-way between these extremes, since the general public wants some of the larger holes (since it looks more "artisan") but also want the crumb tight enough to have some condiments on a sandwich without them all coming out through the holes. This is where you'll see a mix of the ultra-light touch shaping with some more firm de-gassing.
It really does come down to what results that you personally want, and which method works the best for you in your kitchen with your tools and your restrictions and your dough. We all end up experimenting with it to see what will get us closest to our desired results, and what feels most comfortable and usable for us.
If you get a chance, then the ideal experiment is to divide a single bulk of dough in to 2 or 3, and then pre-shape and shape them differently, bake and see how it impacts the results, and see how comfortable you are with each approach. You can then choose how you want to do future loaves based on the results.
Regardless of which you choose, you'll still end up with good bread --- and the odds are that you'll keep changing how you do things as you continue with this obsession, anyways! Have fun, and keep baking happy!
thanks for that icedemeter - good explanation that basically sums it up. Im experimenting with both sourdoughs and commercial yeast breads at the moment as well as different flours, seeds, nuts, herbs etc. All taste good. I guess what im trying to do is come up with a system of sorts, a methodology that works, a foundation/architecture I can play around on. The crumb is my last problem - well nor so much a problem but rather its inconsistent. Its a slow process as theres only 3 of us in the house - and one is my 8 year old daughter - so i cant make lots of bread. I have a bread diary which is very useful ad im nearly there. Correct proofing is another area but im nearly there too....again many thanks
Pre shape is more about preparing the dough for the final shape. For the final shape you want the it taut but you don't want to compromise the skin. If you tighten up the pre shape too much then further tighten it up with the final shape you're at risk of doing this. So I try and do a rough pre shape without tightening too much, allow it to rest and relax then for the final shape i'll make the skin taut but not too much that it begins to break.
P.s. I've just read IceDemeter's explanation and wish to echo it. Yes! the pre shape and final shaping should also be about preparing for what kinda crumb you want. You don't wish for huge craters in the dough so you'll use these stages to knock the bigger bubbles out all the while keeping the smaller ones you've spent time putting in.
thanks Lechem - can i basically assume that the pre-shape is to give the dough a basic shape - to give the dough a nod towards its final shape - while the shaping is about getting a taut skin. In short I should stop getting my knickers in a twist about the pre-shape and just give it a rudimentary shaping with my scraper/hand, let it relax and then shape and place in banneton
That's how I understand it. I watch videos to learn these things and a guy was going through the ropes in a bakery following what they were doing, learning about it. He started to tighten the pre-shape too much and the professional baker stopped him and told him not to overdo it. So yes, the pre shape is a rudimentary shaping. Even if not done taut like the final shaping it helps the final shaped dough to keep that shape.
What I do (I have found it works best for me) is to wet the scraper, my hands and part of my bench. Tip the dough out and fold into the middle going round the dough. Flip the dough over onto the dry part of the bench and with no more then a rudimentary "tightening" form a rough boule using the dry part of the bench to help. Then rest for 10-20 minutes until it relaxes.
Then for the final shaping i'll dust the scraper, my hands and top of the dough with flour and flip it back over onto it's head. Now i'll do a more careful final shape, knocking out the larger air bubbles and making sure not to get any flour on the inside. Flip back over and make a neater shape with a more taut skin.
I find that this way it's easier to manage, I don't use too much flour which also helps to not get any flour inside the final loaf. Then into the banneton it goes (or whatever you're using).
thats a great help thanks - i like an open crumb and use water and my scraper in pre-shape and flour and hands in shape. Ill try your way - its how i do shaping anyway so i might try doing a more rudimentary version in pre-shape
Now I can't pre-shape or final shape as fast as these guys but you'll see what I mean when Jamie starts to over-do the pre-shape. I don't de-gas at all in the pre-shape. Only in the final shape do I make sure the big bubbles are taken care of in order to make a more even crumb.
The Best Bread in Puglia | Jamie's Italy - UNSEEN
well just waiting for my sourdough to finish its first rise so we'll see then : )
thanks
Moray