Hole-grain 100% bread problems
hi guys. I'm sure this subject has been covered a ton of times but here goes again. Yes the name of the post is a deliberate missspelling.
so I've baked 100% whole grain in the past and it never quite worked out for lots of reasons and i gave up for ages and just made white because that was easier. Long story short I ate some fabulous homemade wholemeal recently and wanted a piece of the action. I've made it a couple of times the last few weeks and the same problems have persisted from before ( I have moved house since last time so I can't have 2 duff ovens). Where to start, erm... recipe
ingredients
100% wholegrain
750g wholegrain flour
500ml water (66% hydration)
50g oats
15g salt
1 packet dry instant yeast
25ml sunflower oil
method
combine half flour,liquid,oil and all salt in 1 bowl
combine half flour,liquid,oil, oats and all yeast in another bowl
mix both and leave to rest separate and covered for 12hours
mix both together and leave to prove once
shape, pan and rise again until above pan top
bake at 220 for 30 mins
remove immediately and set to rest on cooling rack for several hours (I left all night covered until I cut it up this morning)
okay so that's the basic description of what I did out the way, here's how it turned out and the problems.
so i sliced it this morning and the results were mixed as usual. I tried to show a couple of images of the whole loaf sliced so you get an idea of how big and number of slices I got from it. About 6 slices were totally fine (3 in from each side) and the rest were either loose or had a hole in the middle (pictures hopefully show this). Additionally a lot of the slices were "doughy" to the touch inside. By that i mean I pressed them with my thumb and the crumb didn't spring back but stayed depressed. One of the photos hopefully shows my permanent thumb print in a slice. The bread toasts ok but takes a long time to do so, sometimes twice in the toaster and the crust is divine. It's almost as though it's just not cooked enough or didn't get hot enough inside but if I left it more than 30 mins it would get charred at that temp wouldn't it? For the record when I make rolls this problem never happens so I'm guessing a cooking time/temperature thing but hopefully you guys can throw some light on this.
thanks in advance and keep up the awesome work. This site has been invaluable to me over the years
first slice with the heel and a perfect crumb and crust
about 3 slices in, you can see the texture of the center loosening
the first slice with a complete hole in the middle
the complete loaf sliced into 14 (I sliced it quite well at least :-P)
me showing the slices where the hole starts to show up (give you a better idea of location of the fault in the bread)
and where the hole disappears (about 3 or 4 slices in from either end)
cant remember how far in this doughy slice was, presumably just before the hole started showing up. This is one slice I pressed my finger into for the imprint to stay behind after.
Is the very low hydration even before the oats are added. For a 100% wholegrain bread i wouldn't go below 80% hydration.
I can only see the main photo so can't get a proper perspective but how about taking out the oats and oil, upping the hydration to 80% and once you've gotten a good unenriched loaf then proceed onto the add-ins.
Wholegrain Flour 100%
Water 80%
Salt 2%
Dried Yeast 1.4%
Dissolve the yeast in a little of the water.
Mix the flour and salt together and place to one side.
In a bowl add the rest of the water then add the yeast and stir.
Add the flour to the water and form the dough.
Knead till full gluten formation.
Cover and bulk ferment till doubled.
Shape into prepared loaf pan and final proof till ready. Don't go for doubling, rather 80%.
Bake in preheated oven.
went too long before baking. I agree, You do cut nice slices. :) Did you get the impression that the loaf might tear while slicing? The mixing instruction: "mix both together and leave to prove once shape, pan and rise again until above pan top." May mean that there is only one proof. Seems to me there is one rise too many after mixing up the dough.
Thirty minutes was not long enough. Lower the temp after the spring or when it starts browning too soon. Note that the top crust is darker than the bottom crust. If you can move the shelf down a notch in the oven, try that first but still think about lowering the temp a little to avoid burning the crust and adding a few more minutes to the bake to make sure the middle bakes done.
I calculate the hydration is 62.5% (750 + 50 / 500) for whole grain (which grain?)
If there is spelt in the mix, another reason to bake earlier.
I find that homemade bread is moister than store bought and seems like it always takes longer to toast, 2x is not uncommon when comparing. I see that as a sign of quality. :)
I concur that the hydration is too low for wholemeal. Increase the liquid to at least 650 ml.(80%). Upon initial mixing, the dough may seem too wet and rather sticky. After a proper soak (I use an overnight cold wait in the refrigerator), the dough will be tacky,soft and lovely.The higher hydration gives you an easier time to fix the 2nd problem I see.
Solving the 2nd issue will give you a much softer wholemeal that won't become crumbly by the 1st day after slicing. Knead to windowpane! Use "windowpane" in the search box and esp for a post by txfarmer. The branny bits become hydrated by being given enough time to soak up the water, the starch needs to be massaged/kneaded to give up the starchy gel to help form the crumb structure. The better the starch is hydrated in this dough the fluffier and softer the final loaf. Having oats helps but esp if you cook or soak them to get them to release their starch. Either boil a portion of your water,pour over oats and set to cool or just soak the oats till thoroughly hydrated. Windowpane or close to it is essential.
Shaping will be easier with this higher hydration dough, as long as you let it sit for a long enough time for the liquid to be absorbed by all the branny bits. You won't be fighting a tough,dry dough.
Have some delicious fun!
I think its just under baked and maybe you got a bit of flour in it when shaping it into the tin to produce the hole.
However - the method - not one I've seen before, but I'm slightly concerned by the 12 hour ferment with a whole packet of yeast (which is typically 7g where I am in the UK). That would make my doughs way overferment and turn to gloop. And the separating it into 2 halves... I'm presuming you're following someone elses recipe, but its not something I've seen. I have seen (and used) a classic "sponge and dough" type of method, but this isn't quite the same. Similarly making a poolish, but again this isn't the same.
FWIW - my usual (I bake these 3 days a week) wholemeal (wholegrain) bread is done at 75% hydration overnight with a tiny fraction of yeast (and no oil or oats). not sure the oats would add that much to it here though. I use 1.6g of dried yeast per 550g flour (with 8g salt and 412g water) That's for a large (UK size) loaf. Mix, knead and leave in a tub overnight at about 20°C, then scale/shape into tins proof (takes about an hour) and bake - 250°C for 12 minutes, then down to 210°C for another 22-24.
I feel its hard to say if your dough is too dry, although others are saying the hydration is too low. It will depend on the flour you're using and oats will absorb more moisture and the crumb looks fluffy enough though - not too brick-like! I'd probably suggest adding a little more water, but not much if you're happy with it as it is.
-Gordon
So it's been a week and time for another bake. I read all the suggestions and went with higher hydration (80%) and basic bread without any additives. I didn't have time for an overnight soak so I rushed it a bit and ended up with a flat loaf (didn't rise properly) but the crumb was good and cooked and had a lovely open texture (Something I've never had before) moreover it was consistent right the way through. I didn't bother taking as many photos because the profile is the same all the way through as in the picture.
So,
the crappy rise, not enough development time, kneading, bad shaping, over rise etc? any suggestions. I could always live with the loose texture of the pre bake dough and just contain it in a sandwich tin but where's the fun in that.
If the problem is under developed dough I.e not kneaded enough then I need some tips on working with the dough. It was quite sticky still and once It had coated my hands it was impossible to work with. I had to scrape it all off my hands more than once to be able to continue kneading. I usually use water but I thought that might compromise the dough by making it not stick together when I folded it up for the final rise (maybe that's where the hole comes from) or am I over thinking this.
I do still have the stand mixer cop out that I used before for wet doughs. Its just a lot easier to wash my hands/worktop than clean the bowl and mixer.
I might add that the bread is super tasty with just the basics. Thick chewy crust, proper get your teeth into it crumb. Awesomeness.
this one has a mushroom shape on top. Since it was wetter when it rose to the rime it was wet enough to flow out making the mushroom shape instead of being stiff enough like the 6% hydration one which could hold its shape and go up instead, I would cut back the amount if dough in the pan so it can't flow out if you don't like that shape, develop the gluten better or decrease the hydration to 77%. With wet dough you want to make sure the gluten is developed well.
For me I would just try to get the gluten better developed and use a taller pan now that the crumb is much better
Happy baking
Rather, I'd say that it is just a matter of you looking at what you might want to alter in order to change the resulting shape. As dabrownman says, you could just put less dough in the pan and don't let it rise above the pan rim (the oven spring will still bring it up), or you could see if starting the bake at a higher temp with steam gives you more oven spring (maybe 10 minutes at 250 or so?). You got a fantastic crumb and delicious flavour, so you obviously have dialed in the most important parts!
As for developing gluten in high-hydration dough, I hear ya on how difficult it is! I personally find it much easier to follow advice I got from Danni3ll3 here, to develop the gluten mostly at a lower hydration level (around 70-75%, whatever is most comfortable for you), and then to gradually knead in more and more water until you have the dough at the hydration that you want. I find that having the water pre-measured and using that to keep my hands wet (I pour a bit at a time over my fingers and in to the dough) allows me to avoid the stuck-to-the-hands issue. Apparently this technique is known as "double-hydration" or "continuous hydration".
Nice job, and kudos on trying different things until you get your bread how you want it!
Thanks for the comments. I guess the only real problem I have with the shape of it is fitting it neatly into a sandwich box and that really is all. Everything else i wanted from that bread is there (including my kids preferring it over store bought white :-D) I guess next time it's a taller bread pan to make sure it doesnt spill out next time and Im there. Really want to get the kids away from store bought nonsense (more a battle with the wife than them to be honest, she likes the convenience of store bought). Just need to streamline the method and plan ahead better so there's always some on hand to get away from the temptation to go store.
Well I went to bake up a new batch this weekend buoyed by last weeks success and it was a major fail. Everything was going great until I sliced into the loaf and found the knife sticking to the uncooked dough inside about 3 slices in. made the recipe 150% bigger using the 80% hydration suggested here. Was about 1125 wholemeal flour and 900 water or so. left the dough for around 8 hours and it was lovely and elastic. Baked at 200 for 10 and 180 for further 25. to solve the shape issue I used a lidded Aluminium loaf pan I bought for doing sandwich bread and covered it for baking. the Bread came out so damp inside that the middle was unusable ( so sad having to throw it out). what did I do wrong? Should I have left it uncovered? I'm one more bad bake away from just making brown rolls cos I know they work. Don't wanna admit defeat though :-D
If the loaf was 150% of original size, plus the hydration level was higher, plus you had it in a new, covered pan, and you are cooking it a bit cooler and only 5 minutes longer than the original recipe - those are all reasons it could be incompletely cooked.
It may have just been too much mass to get the moisture out in time, plus the new pan will change things, too. I am making guesses - I have noticed whole grain flours tend to be a bit more variable in water absorption, too, but that's maybe just what I've encountered so far, and not something that matters for your case.
The 'tap test', where you tap the loaf bottom and see if it sounds hollow, may help for determining when it's done. That doesn't give you a final time, but it gives you a way to test where you can put it back in the pan and back in the oven for more baking.