Italian bread?
I'm fairly new to bread making and would like to find a reasonably simple Italian bread recipe. I found one on this site that looked promising (posted aug 22, '05), but it uses volume measurements, which I'm not a fan of. I tried it anyways, and after adding the last of the flour and letting it knead in my stand mixer, after over 5 minutes, it still looked like a bowl of sour cream. I kept adding flour until it actually looked like dough and started pulling away from the bowl walls, but by that time, most of it probably spent well over 20 minutes kneading. Not sure what effect that will have on things. In the end, I probably added an extra cup of flour beyond what the recipe called for.
Is there an italian bread recipe out there that uses bakers percentages and/or weight-based measurements?
Thanks in advance.
What is the recipe you are following?
No, I don't have anything specific in mind. I've had some great and some forgettable italian breads. There's a supermarket near me that sells a half-decent loaf. I'd be happy if I could make something like that and improve upon it.
I'm making this recipe this morning:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/recipes/italianbread
Good Luck. Let us know how it turns out.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/handbook/poolish-baguettes
Are baguettes basically the same recipe as Italian bread, but shaped differently?
Better with durum flour but if you can't find any use the finest semolina you can find.
http://artisanbreadbaking.com/bread/altamura/
If I *can* find durum flour, do I simply substitute that in place of the semolina in the recipe? Other flour types/amounts remain the same?
Both from Durum wheat and the difference is in the grind.
Durum Wheat is a hard grain which produces a grit like "flour". This is called Semolina.
When Semolina is re-milled to produce a finer flour it is called Durum Flour.
Semolina has different grades from "course" to "fine" and Durum flour is extra fine.
Durum Flour is also known as Re-milled Semolina or Semola Rimacinata.
Durum Flour is more difficult to find but here is a link on the King Arthur Website : http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-extra-fancy-durum-flour-3-lb
...and here is one on Amazon.com : https://www.amazon.com/Caputo-Semola-Grano-Rimaninata-Semolina/dp/B008ZGMP2M/ref=sr_1_1_s_it?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1480347266&sr=1-1&keywords=semola%2Brimacinata&th=1
You will be able to find Semolina more easily (which is what the author of the recipe has used) but go for the finest grind Semolina you can find. If it's too coarse it won't be as good.
The other bread flour remains the same. This recipe is a semolina (or durum flour) mix with normal bread flour.
P.s. I've automatically assumed you live in USA hence the American websites. If you live in London then I know places where you can purchase Durum Flour.
I wandered through one of the local supermarket's bakery section and could find no semolina. There's another chain store that I still have to check. But I think that a local discount store has Bobs Red Mill Semolina pasta flour. Does this sound like what I want?
And it will be coarser than durum flour but still OK for bread. It is described as a sandy texture that is "an excellent choice for Italian-style breads". Basically it's fine semolina.
If I were you I'd drop the hydration of the dough if using this particular flour. Durum flour can take higher hydration as it is a finer grind.
Go ahead and buy it, if you can't find the other flour, but drop the hydration to around 60% and keep the remainder of the water to one side. Should you think it needs more water then better to add a little more at a time until it feels right rather than over hydrating it and then having to add more flour. Which is far messier and doesn't work as well.
P.s. good for a mix of bread and semolina flour. So that recipe for Altamura style bread will be a good choice.
You need to look in ethnic section if you have that sort. Semolina is often will be found with Mediterranean items. Bob's Red Mill is ok, not great as far as fineness of the grind is concerned but it will do. In fact you can even bake with straight semolina if it's not high percentage durum bread and you can put all of it in the sponge. What happens is the coarser the grind of the semolina, the coarser the crumb will be. Here's how it comes with proper durum flour:
And here's the same bread with semolina:
Another option to consider is regrinding semolina yourself - if you have a stand mixer, small grinder attachement will set you back $100-200 depending on the brand, but you will probably recoup it in the long run.
If you really want proper Italian semolina rimacinata you can get it from Amazon.
I do have a stand mixer and a couple of attachments, but I don't think I have a grinder. Well, there's a meat grinder, but I'm sure that's not what you had in mind.
What about a food processor? If I just put the loose flour in it and let it go to town, might that think it some? Or is that a fool's errand?
I have no idea. But the semolina that I buy is already fairly fine, I am not sure my food processor will do much with it.
that is not the fine powdery version, as mentioned, "semola di gran duro rimaccinata" - be cautious of the coarseness of the semolina. The coarser the grain the more likely it will be that your semolina will not hydrate properly and the micro edges on the grains will likely act as tiny blades which will disrupt and/or cut the gluten structure.
Before I found the rimaccinata I used my neglected coffee bean grinder to mill down the grain to something that approximated the rimaccinata, while not quite equaling it. This worked well, but each grinder-full held only a small volume of the flour, so it took a bit of work to get enough for a mix. I do not think that the food processor will work, as that was my failed attempt prior to the coffee grinder.
I really don't know whether this holds any validity, but when I used semolina in a mix, I gave it a half hour extra autolyse to ensure that the flour was on its way to saturation and breaking down. This preceded adding the regular white flour, which I then gave an additional autolyse to.
alan
Those look great (especially the one with durum flour). What is the formula used?
That's Hamelman's semolina bread.
Thanks, I'll have to try it (I have the book).
The first time I followed the protocol as far as the 125% bread flour levain. I found the flavor lacking, so I made it again with rye flour instead of bread flour and thought the taste was much heartier - for lack of a better word. You may wish to consider that for a second time through.
This here was a yeasted version, the one with "flying sponge". Out of curiosity though - how can you possibly taste durum under the rye?
The book is a recent addition here and I've only leafed through the levain section. Anyway, the total prefermented flour is 15%. So the scoreboard on this one registers as 25% bread flour, 60% durum and 15% rye. The semolina still comes through. Here is the formula sheet for a 1500g mix:
As best as I can format it for this editor...
alan
Hey, that looks pretty good. Thanks!
But it seems to come together nicely. Make sure to knead till it comes away from the sides of the bowl. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.
Is it just some generic term, or something more specific in mind. If I have this correct, northern Italian breads tend to use little or no salt, and to my own palate are unappetizing. Southern Italian breads tend to use semolina which has been finely milled and labels durum rimaccinata. This is what I have in my mind when referring to Italian bread if for no other reason than this was the type of bread sold in the local Italian bakeries where I grew up in NYC. Often these breads are coated in toasted sesame seeds.
There are differing formulae for all types of "Italian bread" with differing percentages of durum flour and differing hydrations - anywhere from ~68% to ~80%. Are you interested in a direct dough or one with a preferment? One that uses commercial yeast or one that use your own levain?
In order to better assist you, I believe that you need to better identify the aspects of what your ideal Italian bread is. And then we can take it from there.
And then - there is always the search box in the upper right where you can do your own research to help narrow down what you want. Always a good place to start.
Sorry, my expertise in bread is insufficient for this. In almost every store I go in that sells bread, they invariably have a product, usually wrapped in a paper bag, that says "Italian Bread" on the side. The bread itself is whitish in color and has a crispy crust. It's oblong-shaped, obviously not cooked in a pan. The bread in the link that I posted (that I'm cooking today) is pretty much what I'm looking for. I can offer no details beyond that.
I'm really not looking for something ultra-specific, or from any particular region of Italy. The info that has already been offered in this thread should serve my needs, though.
I knew that it wouldn't come out great. I was right. It seemed extremely soft anyways. Once I formed the loaves and left them for the final proofing, they basically melted into each other, and I got something more resembling a thick pizza than bread. But it's not bad tasting, still warm and with some butter, so I'll have it for lunch. And I'll try some of these other recipes next.
You know, you can bake a pair of identical loaves using absolutely any recipe, call one Italian, the other - French and no one will be able to prove that you are wrong. Particularly here.
Right? There goes that attitude thing of yours again. Sorry to keep pointing it out. Glad you are here to keep us all straight and not making these these silly mistakes.......
I am sorry if it offends you that I do not subscribe to the multiculturalist notion that history is just a point of view and anything can be called anything as long as it fits narrative du jour.
but am miffed that you have such a low opinion of Fresh Lofians and seem to relish in insultung us.
I'd like to remind you that a) it is you who's started this conversation, so you clearly care about what I have to say, and b) only Floyd has the right to speak for the community, certainly not you.
and does so every day. Be nice and folks won't take offense at your comments.
nt
If i can help you i'm happy to do it. @alfanso has well said. Southern Italian breads tend to use semola rimacinata, center italian bread tend to use no salt ( Toscana, Umbria ), northern Italian breads tend to use wheat flour or rye ( rye in Trentino-Alto Adige ) buckwheat in Valtellina...
There are many kind of bread in italy :-)
And I'm looking forward to trying many of them. I'm still in my bread making infancy, but learning. As it is, everything is a recipe to me. As time goes on, I'll learn the basics that you are all intimately familiar with. Next time I make a dough that is this squishy, I'll know that it's over-hydrated.
I don't think I'd be interested in the no-salt varieties. Of course, it's quite possible that what I've come to know as Italian bread has as much to do with Italy as french fries have to do with France. But I still like it and it does a great job of mopping up pasta sauce or soup.
It probably isn't the Italian bread you are looking for... since you want the supermarket kind - but there are so many Italian breads to choose from.
If you type in Italian bread you will get even a longer and different list of posts
Lazy Loafer just posted a blog entry for Scali Bread, a boston based "Italian Bread". This may be what you are looking for. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49916/scali-nice-white-bread
Re-reading the original request, it seems that a more lean bread with a crispy crust is required. It's funny - one of the "Italian" breads in the "Bread Illustrated" book is called 'Pane Francese', basically French bread in Italian. So there goes the multicultural thing... :)
My guess is the OP is looking for Pane Siciliano, but for a simple "Italian Bread" recipe that might be a good place to start I would look to KAF:
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/italian-bread-101-recipe
EDIT to add: I prefer ones with a preferment like the above, but you could also try an enriched one (it will be more fluffy like white sandwich bread):
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/italian-supermarket-bread-recipe
Edit AGAIN: Another thought would be the Italian bread from BBA:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6597/italian-bread-and-bread-baker039s-apprentice
The recipe is probably on the Web somewhere if you don't have BBA. Otherwise I can get you the weights/percentages. You can also add sesame seeds to this and it would be really good.
I second Maverick's recommendation for the Italian bread from the Bread Baker's Apprentice. It's not difficult to make and the taste is excellent. When I made it I did one as a batard on a pizza stone and the other in a loaf pan. Both came out quite nice.
Good luck with your baking. My Thanksgiving Day dinner was pretty humdrum, but everyone commented on the dinner rolls I made from the BBA white bread variation 3!
After years of going to my in-laws for thanksgiving, it looked like it was going to be our turn this year, and I was looking forward to showing off my cooking chops. Long story, but Thanksgiving ended up being someplace else. But after finding out the truth of things, I didn't mind losing out. Turns out that about 1/3 of the guests were gluten-intolerant (good-bye cranberry bread and gravy), some were dairy-free (so long, broccoli/cheese sauce and chocolate mousse pie), and one faction of the family is strictly organic, right down to the spices.
This is where I thank heavens that all I ever have to deal with is picky eaters.
Hi enchant as you have stated your just starting on your bread making adventure and you will realise as you progress the your question 'I want to make Italian bread' was a bit silly as there are as many types of Italian bread as there are types of car and your not on your own we have all asked silly questions, your store where you bought your bread is not helping by calling the loaf 'Italian bread' it's a bit like saying 'I drive a car' and of course the next question would be yeh but which car !!
There are over 350 bread types in Italy, of which 250 are readily available.
Here's a Hundred to get you started ................................. ;)
South Italy Bread Types
PUGLIAAltamura bread
Pane di Altamura, Rota, Sckanata
CAMPANIAPane del pescatore, Pane di Padula, Pane cafone, Pane con i cicoli, Pizza, Taralli, Puccelto rustico, Tòrtano
BASILICATAPane di Matera, Pane di Rivello, Varone, Pizze ripiene, Ciambelle, Ciambelle a otto, Ficcilatidd
CALABRIAFrese, Pane di castagne, Filone, Cuddurra, Buccellato
SICILYPane di Monreale, Pane e birra, Cucciddatu, Pane e pasta dura, Bukë
SARDINIAPane carasau, Pane con gerda, Civraxiu, Moddizzosu
North Italy Bread Types
LOMBARDIAGrissini bread
Michetta, Pan coi fichi, Pane di segale, Busella
VENETOPlava, Puccia, Pane Azzimo, Pan biscotto, Montasu, Bossolàl, Clòpa, Ciabatta Italia, Bibanesi.
VALLE D'AOSTAPane di segale, Micoula.
PIEMONTEGrissini Stirati, Blòva, Pane di Carlo Alberto, Pane nero di Coimo
LIGURIACarpasinna, focaccina classica, Blòva della V.Bormida, Grissa di Dolceacqua
FRIULI VENEZIA GIULIAPan di Frizze, Rosetta, Pane di mais, Grispolenta, Cornetto Istriano, Biga servolana.
Central Italy Bread Types
TUSCANYGenzano bread
Panina gialla aretina, Bozza pratese, Ciaccino, Schiaccia, Testarolo, Pane di Montegemoli, Neccio, Focaccetta di Aulla, Ficattola, Ciaccino
UMBRIAPane di Terni, Pane casereccio, Torta al testo, Pizza di Pasqua, Pane di strettura, Pan nociato, Pan caciato
MARCHEFilone casereccio, Pane di Farro, Focaccia Farcita, Crescia maceratese, Crostolo
LAZIOCiriola romana, Pane di Lariano, Pizza bianca, Ciambella sorana, Falia, Pane di Genzano
ABRUZZOPane di mais, Pane di spiga, Pane di senatori
MOLISEPane di spiga, Pane di Mais, Pane di senatori
Perhaps it is to the experienced baker, but I'd like to believe that this forum is welcoming to newcomers as well as to the uber-experienced and that questions that may seem silly to you aren't silly to me.
Perhaps this is something local to my geographical area, but, like I mentioned before, virtually every store that sells bread, sells loaves that are labeled "Italian Bread". They don't specify the specific town in Italy where the bread originates. Some are tastier than others, but they're all pretty much the same.
And in my defense, in the recipes section of this very website is a recipe for "Italian Bread". That's the entire name - nothing more specific than that. The article starts: "What is commonly known as Italian Bread in the states...". Perhaps I should have specified that I live in the States.
That's a lot of useful information. Thanks for going to all the trouble to research and post all that!
Thanks again, everyone. Just to be clear... although I specified "Italian bread" and what that means to *me*, that doesn't mean that this is my idea of the ultimate in baked bread. It's something that *seems* like it should be belong in the "easy" category for inexperience bakers. I'm hoping that this merely the first step in a long journey toward making some of these amazing things I see in photos all over this site.
alfanso mentions: Scali Bread, a boston based "Italian Bread". I actually live just south of Boston, and Piantedosi is a large bakery from this area. Many of the smaller non-chain markets sell their bread, and I think their scali bread is terrific. I've been trying to duplicate their pizza dough for about 12 years now.
for your bread, you're bound to make something that's Italian :)
This flour for bread baking is synonymous with Italy. Lower the hydration if you find it easier. Keep it 100% semolina / durum flour and whatever you produce will be in the Altamura Style.
As long as you enjoy making it and make something you like. I can give you a simple recipe with only semolina / durum flour and make a bread with biga / poolish / sourdough / straight up yeast. It won't be difficult and we'll keep the hydration low enough that's easy to handle.
That sounds great, Lechem. I've got a new mixer coming tomorrow and looking forward to testing it on something.
Whatever you decide to make I hope it works out. That recipe I sent to you looks just perfect. It is high hydration though but by all means hold some water back and slowly add it if you think the dough needs it.
I know what you mean when you ask for Italian bread and understand where you are coming from. You're probably thinking of the classic ciabatta or durum flour style breads. Either the bread which is flat and has big holes in the crumb or the yellowy crumb.
I don't make perfect Italian bread (my main one being Altamura style) but I'm still working on it and I enjoy the process.
Please don't miss quote me, I said
'and you will realise as you progress the your question 'I want to make Italian bread' was a bit silly as there are as many types of Italian bread as there are types of car and your not on your own we have all asked silly questions'
And to quote you ......... 'Again... inexperienced baker'
'Many of the smaller non-chain markets sell their bread, and I think their scali bread is terrific. I've been trying to duplicate their pizza dough for about 12 years now.'
inexperienced .......... you have been baking for 12 years !!!!!!!!!!!
But that is all by the by all I was trying to point out was you were asking a question that had no real answer .........
In the UK 'a bit silly' is not a defamatory remark it's light hearted, maybe where you are it is not.
I teach bread making and I deal with people young & old who have never taken offence at that remark, I have always had laughter, I use it on me when I make a mistake also do you honestly think I would have gone to the trouble to find copy & paste the information for you if I was not trying to be helpful.
I assure you, I will never ever consider the question silly. Like I've said before, from where I come from, "Italian Bread" is something very specific. It needs no further specification. I would definitely like to learn how to make a good version of it, and outside of this forum, I'll continue to call it "Italian bread".
Technically, I've been baking for 40 years. But I've never baked bread before, and since this is the primary focus of this forum, this is what I was referring to.
What is often called "Italian Bread" in the US is what you're served at an Italian restaurant, often with garlic butter. It's basically a baguette dough, but a bit softer, with a small amount of oil, sugar, and milk in the dough. It does not include durum flour.
In the US, "Italian bread" is basically a soft white bread coated with sesame seeds. Since this is an international forum, some people won't know exactly what is meant by that generic term. I agree that in the US there are really only a couple breads that are called Italian bread. But even then, there are some good ones and some not so good ones.
I think it is helpful when asking about pretty much any bread to give the qualities you are looking for. Even a French baguette has many different flavor and texture qualities. As you learn more about techniques and bread formulas, you will find that sometimes it only takes small changes to drastically change the end result.
I bet with a couple small tweeks, you could make your pizza dough into an loaf you would enjoy.
Here is the BBA recipe that I recommend (I would add sesame seeds to coat):
http://amberskitchen.blogspot.com/2008/09/italian-bread-biga-style.html
This shows the technique pretty well:
http://pinchmysalt.com/bread-bakers-apprentice-challenge-italian-bread/
Let us know how your bread comes out.
I have to admit that if you scooped out the inner bread from Italian bread, French bread and baguette sold locally, I probably couldn't tell the difference, and I have to wonder how different it actually is. It seems like the same dough. Italian bread is about 12" long and 6" wide. French bread is 24" long and 3" wide. Baguettes are half of a French bread. And to be clear, I'm NOT talking correct terminology. I'm talking about what I'm used to buying locally.
Yeah, the ones sold at the supermarket are hard to distinguish most of the time. That is why making your own will allow you to see subtle differences. I think that the difference is usually the use of oil and/or sugar in Italian bread. It could just be the amounts too (plus adding the sesame seeds). The rise time and/or lack of pre-ferment is why they all taste the same at the store. Any of the recipes I have given will give you what you want, but better. I suggest the BBA one. My reasoning is that the use of a stiff biga will yield superior results and he doesn't go overboard with the yeast. He doesn't add sesame seeds in the book, but that is easy enough to do. If you are using King Arthur flour, then I would probably go with the All Purpose.
Yes, Enchant, I think you'll find this form is very welcoming to newcomers, including both experienced and inexperienced bakers. I just read this whole thread and felt a little sorry for you – I imagine many folks here know exactly what you are referring to, whether the label "Italian" is technically accurate or not. Hats off to those who have tried to help by pointing to formulas that might work, and I'm wagging a finger at those who simply want to "school" you! Best of luck with your efforts!
you buy is to look at the ingredient list to see what is in it and get an idea of how much since it is listed from most to least by weight.
If it has wheat, durum or semolna in it it will be listed. You can quickly see if it is enriched with milk, butter or sugar. Then you can come up with a recipe that fits the ingredient list. It likely has a bunch of odd stuff and or chemicals in it that make the bread stay fresh longer or make it rise better etc. These are always fun experiments.