Maybe it would be good to define whole wheat.

I like Peter Reinhart's books and his recipes, but I have to say I wasn't very excited by his attempt to introduce "transitional" as a new classification when I encountered it. Transitional to what? As compared to what? I was then a bit amused to find out that Reinhart is struggling with a weight/blood sugar problem and is suddenly in favor of a 100% whole grain diet. Which is in many ways similar to his previous books: he is always 100% convinced about the theories he propounds in Book N. And I don't doubt that he is sincere and heartfelt about it. But then in Book N+2 he has a new theory that contradicts some or all of the theory in Book N, and he is just as sincere about the new one as the old.

So I take his recipes and writing style as they come, and his theories (and new terminology) with a small grain of salt.

Just my 0.02.

sPh

It really annoys me how many people treat whole grains as some sort of silver bullet that will solve all their dietary ills.  Even if you accept the idea that white flour is unhealthy, which I do not, in an otherwise healthy diet an occaisional loaf of white bread won't be the end of one's life.  And in the absence of an otherwise healthy diet, whole grains won't save you.

Personally, I am far more concerned with the rise in the consumption of sugar.  If you look at history, the aristocracy ate white breads from the middle ages on.  And they lived longer than the peasants who ate whole grain breads.  Please, don't tell me that the wealthy had access to doctors - the doctors in days of yore weren't all that good for you.

But I've seen graphs comparing the increaed consumption of sugar with the incidence of obesity and diabetes, they track very well.

If you accept the idea that you have a goal of making whole grain breads, and you are having trouble making them, then the idea of honing ones skills on breads that are partly white and partly whole wheat would lead to the term transitional.

However, I see nothing wrong with white breads.  Or with part whole wheat bread.  Or all whole wheat breads.  As I often say, good breads, like good people, come in all colors.

As a hint... look at the USDA food database.  Look up industrial white flour.  That's whats used to make mass market white breads.  Look up all-purpose and bread flours.  That's home bakers and artisan bakers use to make breads.  There are orders of magnitude of difference between them.  Are they as wholesome as whole grain?  No.  Are they a nutritional landmine?  No.  Are you suffering from malnutrition?  Again, no.

Mike

I totally agree, and should have said so, that if a bread is called whole wheat, all the flour in it should be whole wheat.

When I was selling at the farmers market, I was a stickler for that.  If it wasn't 100%m I didn't call it whole wheat.  To do otherwise would be cheating the customer.

I would call a bread a "wheat bread" if it was partly whole wheat and partly white.  But even there, if it wasn't half whole wheat I didn't think it was worth mentioning in the name of the bread.... though it was mentioned in the ingredient list.

Mike

My biggest concern, personally, with white flour breads is not its nutritional make-up, but its impact on the blood sugar. French bread has about the same impact as eating straight sugar, and with several cases of Diabetes type II on both sides of my family, I'd rather eat a sourdough, whole wheat bread that has a much lower glycemic impact.

It's not a silver bullet, of course, but we eat a lot of bread in my house, so the type of bread does matter. As for the nobility, saying that they ate white bread and still lived longer than the peasants who ate whole grain bread really doesn't say much, since the nobility weren't working in the fields sun-up to sundown six days a week eating little more than bread and water.

That's not to say that I don't make white breads from time to time. I do. Just not on a regular basis.

I don't mean to preach here at all; I'm just explaining why I, personally, have chosen to make most of my breads from 100% whole grain flour.

When I first read this post's title (Maybe it would be good to define whole wheat), my first question to myself was - flour or bread?

If we're defining flour, then true whole wheat flour contains the entire wheat berry. Supermarket brands of "whole wheat flour" that omit the germ in order to obtain longer shelf life need not apply. I don't think many readers at TFL would argue with that one.

If we're defining bread, then there is plenty of descriptive latitude for those who don't sell their bread. Most of us here do not sell bread (never have, never will).

When I make bread (or read bread recipes), I don't care if the author's "whole wheat" or "whole grain" bread uses some white flour. Sure, this forum is called Whole Grains: Whole grain and multi-grain breads, but that covers a wide territory.

There are strong opinions about what constitutes "whole grain" bread, both on this site and others. For some, a well-risen loaf with zero white flour is the holy grail. For others, bread made with white flour and whole grain flour is the end goal. (I include myself in the second group.)

For me, transitional implies that the end-goal is to make bread with zero percent white flour. White flour is a crutch or learning tool but, ultimately, an ingredient to be eliminated.

We are united in our quest to make good bread. The world of bread is infinitely variable and will keep us all happily experimenting (and eating) until we pass on to that great bakery in the sky. Let's respect that variability - in bread and in ourselves.

       I'm not so sure that the nobility live longer than peasants. I've read accounts that counter that argument. Of course, they likely had access to a wider range of foods and better living conditions. I do agree that whole grains aren't a silver bullet, but do retain much more of the nutrition. A lot of this isn't readily digestible by humans. Sourdough fermentation does help a lot. The food scientist Harold McGee concluded some time back that a loaf of white bread was more nutritious than a loaf of whole wheat bread. This due to the vitamins added to white flour. However, he was only considering conventionally yeasted breads. It since been proven,or maybe previously, that fermented whole grains are more nutitious than straight cooked whole grains. So, maybe if your major concern with whole wheat/whole grain breads is nutrition you should stick to sourdough types. It probably won't make much difference with yeasted breads, except for the fiber. I do think some whole wheat flour added to an another wise white bread loaf does add a nice flavor. I have to agree with Mike Avery though that a good loaf of bread is really what you're aiming at in baking, regardless of creed or color.

Now the Star-bellied Sneetches had bellies with stars. The Plain-bellied Sneetches had none upon thars. The stars weren't so big; they were really quite small. You would think such a thing wouldn't matter at all. But because they had stars, all the Star-bellied Sneetches would brag, "We're the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches."

With their snoots in the air, they would sniff and they'd snort, "
We'll have nothing to do with the plain-bellied sort."
And whenever they met some, when they were out walking,
they'd hike right on past them without even talking.

I certainly respect anyone's decision to only bake whole grain breads. But I agree with Mike and others that I personally don't believe it is a dietary silver bullet and that it is one of many valid goals in baking at home. Personally, it isn't one of mine.

As site admin, I've consciously resisted calls for flour Apartheid here (does that sound ridiculous? It should). I agree with subfuscpersona that we should focus on what we have in common and ways we can help each other reach our own personal goals rather than casting aspersions on others who aren't pursuing the same goal. I'm not saying you were doing so, ron, as much as addressing a series of posts we've had in the past few months that have suggested we should divvy ourselves up into us (the pure, the whole grain bakers) and them (those who are foolish enough to consume white flour). Again, if I'm making it sound ridiculous, that's good... it seems absurd that we'd squabble over this when 95% of what we do is the same.

I guess my suggestion is that if folks aren't finding a suitable 100% whole wheat recipe on the site, post one and get that conversation going. Sharing one's passion and enthusiasm for 100% whole grain the way JMonkey has is a much more effective way to promote one's cause than suggesting people who don't share the purist's definition have just been brainwashed by lobbyists.

Pardon me for sitting here and snickering just a little. I realize this is a serious topic for many, not so for some. But I am reminded of the elephant, described by the host of blind people, pardon me for the apparent but unintended implication...

100% whole wheat with no white flour... is that someone's real goal? I agree with Floyd, who I respect very much for his character, especially his ability to hold his tongue and when he releases it, the words are uplifting. Why do we as a race need so desperately need to elevate our noses so high? Tell me if I am wrong, but isn't there white flour in whole wheat? Now before you get all uppity and answer in anger, consider that question as legitimate. When you grind up the wheat berry, you get bran, germ and WHITE FLOUR. See, there I go getting excited. Pardon.

Let me ask this: although the size of individual wheat berries is fairly consistent, there must be some variation, no? So some whole wheat flour has more white in it, marginally, that others, year by year, as the growth cycle changes with the weather. So, some of us just boost that some...

"I'll have a Big Mac, large fries, an apple pie, and a diet Coke..."

I agree with the sugar issue, except what I read suggests that corn syrup is a larger contributor to the increase in obesity and diabetes. When the price of sugar went up some years ago, ingredient lists changed as more less expensive corn syrup replaced more sugar. Any way you look at it, if we are more concerned about the way we eat, perhaps we will improve our nutrition. Will that save your life? No.

"Well, it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates. Well, there ain't no time to wonder why, whoopy, we're all gonna die." There is so much more that we do in violation of how we should live our lives, perfect nutrition will not save us. That said, except for chocolate, we should be more consciencious about the food we put in our mouths.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Lee

                                            Maple Oatmeal Bread

sponge                                           autolyze

2 1/2 cups whole wheat flour          2 cups whole wheat flour

1/4 tsp. dry yeast                         1 tsp. salt

1/8 cup water                               1 cup milk/1 tbsp. apple cider vinegar

1 1/2-2 cups water                        3/4 cup maple syrup

 oats                                            seeds

1 1/3 cup rolled oats                     1/3 sunflower seeds

2 cups boiling water                       1/4 cup millet

1 tsp. salt                                     hot water to cover

Next day

1/4 cup water                                1/3 cup butter

1 3/4 tsp. dry yeast                       1/2 cup ground flaxseeds

Night before: Mix the yeast and 1/8 cup water together.  Make sponge in one bowl and autolyze in another.  Put water over oats in a bowl and the seeds in another bowl.  Cover all and let sit til next morning.  Mix yeast and water together and add to the sponge mixture.  Mix the butter, seeds(drained), oats(with water) to the autolyze.  Then I add all together and add the flax.  Mix it together *and let sit for about 40 min. to 1 hour or until it gets some rise.  Then I use a spat to pull the dough up from the bottom and over the sides towards the middle, as I go around the dough in the bowl.  It starts to get stronger as I do this.  Then I cover this and let it double and then do the fold techniques about every 30-40 minutes, about 3 times total.  Then I shape into loaf pans, I also like to put poppy seeds ontop, proof, and then slash and bake in a cold-start oven at 450 degrees, for 10 minutes and then reduce the heat to 350 for about 30-35 minutes more. 

*Now I don't measure exact, I make this bread all the time, so I just put it together and go by how it looks to see if it needs anymore flour or water.  I have done it without the milk and all water and it did still turn out well.  This bread is not sweet, just really flavorful and has a soft texture.   I grind my own flour and it is the hard,red, spring wheat.

     This recipe looks really tasty and healthy. I have a couple of questions. It looks like you add vinegar to the milk in the autolyse. I am assuming this would curdle it. Is this so you get a buttermilk like flavor or does it take the place of scalding? Also, you mention a spat. What's that?

I think this forum subheading is fine as is.  Postings of recipes with small amounts of whole grains will tend to be made elsewhere.

I disagree with the notion that 100% whole grain bread is a distinct class.  Beginning somewhere around 33% whole grain, it becomes harder to ignore the common issues that differentiate all whole grain baking: hydration, gluten development, structure, enzyme control, flavor, and texture.  Maintaining a 100% purity rule would also eliminate whole grain breads with a little vital wheat gluten. 

As a designation for mixed refined and whole grain bread, “bastard bread” sounds kind of negative.  How about “lightened bread”?

Sorry, I should have said rubber spatula.  As for the milk, I don't usually heat mine up and I add the vinegar to achieve what buttermilk is like. 

Found yet another TFL link - the poster gives ingredients and detailed instructions

> from donyeokl
100% wholemeal spelt with poolish posted Oct 1, 2006
donyeokl also posted this photo


The post is in a thread called Supermarket whole wheat bread in the General section of General Discussion and Recipe Exchange.

Sorry to hear that it didn't work out.  But I did say that I don't measure exact.  And I know by looking at it, if it needs more liquid or flour.  I use the autolyse term because I have learned that is what others call it for soaking the flour for a period of time.  The oatmeal, for me soaks up all that hot water overnight.  I don't know about the canola oil, but it may make a difference.   Maybe you needed to do some more folds also.  I don't shape if it doesn't feel right.  If you feel this is too much liquid for your flour, then cut back on some of it.  Even if your first try didn't work for the "look," how did it taste?

Much of the argument here all seems a bit like a tempest in a tea cup.

I admit that I am casual and call my sandwich bread "whole wheat" - made with half whole wheat flour and half unbleached allpurpose. If I were making it with all whole wheat flour, I'd call it "100% whole wheat". (If I were buying bread, I would look at the ingredients label to see what kind of flour, how much sugar, oil, preservatives, chemicals, artificial flavourings and colourings, etc. etc.)

I've never heard of "transitional" bread - that of course, does not mean it doesn't exist.

My only goal is to make good bread. I always include some whole wheat flour in every recipe - I'm using the Carol Field ("Italian Baker") method of mimicking hand-milled flour. I do not believe that white flour is bad for one. It's all the other junk - too much sugar, too many preservatives, too much transfat, etc. etc. 

It's my understanding that 100% whole wheat flour is flour milled from the WHOLE wheat berry. Atta, which seems like whole wheat, is not. There is one part missing (sorry can't remember which part) from the durum wheat from which it is milled. 

-Elizabeth 

P.S. I love the motto I saw on a blog recently. It went something like this: I believe in moderation in everything - even moderation.

Hi, with you on occasional white ok, BUT, hubby gets gastric distress with ANY white wheat flour and even limits his ww consumption. But I love bread so... I need 100% ww recipes.  I also use brown rice flour as gravy thickener and breading for meat, etc. with no ill effects and tastes good.  So that's my 2c. 

Jonquil