Getting started - helpful hints and book/website recommendations?
I've just had a go at my first bread baking and found it a strange mix of reward and failure! I picked the Hugh Fernley Whittingstall sourdough recipe for my first efforts and had to put two things resembling house bricks into the food recycling! The starter mix was just not sufficiently active and my first and second risings just didn't do the things they were meant to, unbeknown to me! The second attempt was more successful and we have actually eaten the bread!
However, my 100% wholemeal mix was substantial, to say the least (with a doughy bottom!). The strong white mix I did was more successful with a fairly even spread of bubbles in the final bake. Both have challenging and robust crusts! I found it difficult to get the proved dough into the baking tins and wondered if proving actually in the baking tins (like my mum used to do fifty years ago!) was a good idea? Hugh F-W, suggests that they end up the "right way up" if you flip them from your proving basket to the tins but I didn't understand what he meant here.
I've used Stoat's flour (http://www.stoatesflour.co.uk/) and have a Hotpoint fan oven that will reach about 230 degrees top-wack in the main oven. I have a nice energetic starter culture bubbling away in a jar now.
Any guidance as to how to rectify the problems I had with my second baking would be great or any general advice for the novice baker, like "oh, you didn't start with sourdough did you?!)
What I would like to track down is a good, easy to follow, probably UK inspired book to follow or (other than this excellent website!) other online links.
Thanks in anticipation.
I've just had a go at my first bread baking and found it a strange mix of reward and failure! I picked the Hugh Fernley Whittingstall sourdough recipe for my first efforts and had to put two things resembling house bricks into the food recycling! The starter mix was just not sufficiently active and my first and second risings just didn't do the things they were meant to, unbeknown to me! The second attempt was more successful and we have actually eaten the bread!
However, my 100% wholemeal mix was substantial, to say the least (with a doughy bottom!). The strong white mix I did was more successful with a fairly even spread of bubbles in the final bake. Both have challenging and robust crusts! I found it difficult to get the proved dough into the baking tins and wondered if proving actually in the baking tins (like my mum used to do fifty years ago!) was a good idea? Hugh F-W, suggests that they end up the "right way up" if you flip them from your proving basket to the tins but I didn't understand what he meant here.
I've used Stoat's flour (http://www.stoatesflour.co.uk/) and have a Hotpoint fan oven that will reach about 230 degrees top-wack in the main oven. I have a nice energetic starter culture bubbling away in a jar now.
Any guidance as to how to rectify the problems I had with my second baking would be great or any general advice for the novice baker, like "oh, you didn't start with sourdough did you?!)
What I would like to track down is a good, easy to follow, probably UK inspired book to follow or (other than this excellent website!) other online links.
Thanks in anticipation.
I started my sourdough some 5-6 years ago now based on his TV stuff. However I quickly changed my recipes and techniques as his seemed overly complex. This is my "daily" loaf:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/44111/easy-sourdough-part-1
I used Stoates for a little while - the down-side is that their white bakes somewhat grey - I think their extraction from the stoneground isn't as much as other mills - and as I sell my bread the customers notices and whinges were heard...
Keep baking!
-Gordon
No wonder you bread has suffered - poor things. Life will be better for them now and your bread will improve dramatically. Moms know best:-)
Welcome and Happy baking
Thanks for the replies. To run through all your comments, here are some answers.
I've used Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's recipe from his River Cottage Everyday book (Page 68 for the starter and page 69 for the recipe.) In this, he says to use a proving basket for the second rising. He also creates a sloppy sponge mix to start the process (with some starter, flour, and water) and leaves this overnight before making it into a dough that can be kneaded the following morning. This is another step but apparently it affects flavour? I did all of this. I note that drogon's recipe does not follow this route but creates the dough straight away to do the first proving overnight (although the first mix is allowed to stand for 30 minutes or so, which maybe has a similar effect?). Also, I think I see two stages where some sort of kneading is done? The first only for 30 seconds and the other folding process just before its final proofing?
Thanks for the advice that tins are the thing to prove in, which I will try next time (and maybe try drogon's boule (proving basket) method again when I'm more confident with the basic baking. My so called boule dough was quite runny and it went a lot a thinner on the baking tray and probably baked too much in the centre. Using tins for the second proving will not allow me to follow H F-W's advice to pre-heat baking trays (and tins as I did) before tipping the dough from the proving baskets but I guess Mum was right! I remember beautifully risen dough emerging up and out of the tins and them being slid into a hot oven. It was the bread that we grew up on and she baked twice a week.
As for flour, yes, Stoat's strong white flour does come out grey in the final bake but it's very tasty! I can get Wessex Mill http://www.wessexmill.co.uk/ flour locally as well but was attracted by the stone grinding method used at Stoats. Any views on this? Drogon mentions Shipton Mill http://www.shipton-mill.com/ and this brings back memories from childhood as this was where my mum got her flour from. I think that it is still stoneground so maybe a trip back down memory lane at some time!
I'll be having another go tonight!
Gordon,
I've just tumbled to your possible location. Where might I come and buy your bread ...Buckfastlegh?! I'm in East Devon.
Aidan
I'm based in Buckfastleigh - have a look at my website for locations & days: http://moorbakes.co.uk/buy/
Depending on exactly where in E. Devon it might be a bit far though, but if going up the A38 let me know and I can put something aside for you.
Cheers,
-Gordon
Dear A BakEr,
Having just started bread making, I've got a really bubbly starter in Kilner jar that I've been feeding every day for about two weeks now (following the first period of about ten days to get it really going.)
If I'm understanding it correctly, I could use this to follow drogon's recipe and, as mine is a nonrefrigerated active starter, I wouldn't even need to bulk it up to use it initially as he does in his link (but would need to feed it soon as I let my first dough rest and catch up a bit). Could I have the first dough mix done this evening and be ready to go with part 2 of drogon's recipe in the morning? The H F-W overnight sponge method is there to arrive at a sufficient quantity of starter from maybe a refrigerated culture? Provided I have a pre-fermentation stage in at some time (i.e. before kneading), then I'm OK?
Could I have the first dough mix done this evening and be ready to go with part 2 of drogon's recipe in the morning? The H F-W overnight sponge method is there to arrive at a sufficient quantity (and activity) of starter from maybe a refrigerated culture? However, as drogon does, it's a good idea to let the initial dough mix stand (even just for thirty minutes) before any kneading takes place?
I hope I have this right now!
Aidan
If you have at least 150g of active starter in your jar then you can use it right away - that's my experience anyway. No need to use it to make a "production" starter - it's already active and ready... Just mix it all together, leave half an hour, give it a quick knead then leave it overnight in a coolish place (it's starting to warm up here now!) then carry on in the morning with the shape/proof/bake part.
When you take that 150g starter out of the jar and have mixed up the dough, top-up the jar with 75+75g flour & water and treat it as a normal "refresh". (Or put it in the fridge)
(Other starter maintenance regimes are available :-)
-Gordon
Yes, in the UK so it's about 11:35hr British Summertime now. Thanks for the summarised recipe A BakEr and I like the guidance to watch the dough, not the clock!
The bit in the recipe that says:
...that means that it's not a stiff dough or does it mean that its had a feed added recently or something else? Apologies for this next question but I wasn't quite clear!
Many thanks for the recipe. I'll give it a go and report back. I'll just put the chainsaw away in the shed before I start!
Hi You'syourloaf,
You've already had some great advice from A BakEr (who has also helped me with previous posts!) You also asked about bread books written for the UK market. I don't have any on my shelves, but I have a suggestion if you are reading recipe books or posts from the US.
European flours tend to handle less water than flours in North America. If you can understand the concept of hydration (the ratio of the weight of liquid in the dough to the weight of flour, expressed as a percentage) then the job will become a lot easier. Once you know that baking with European flours will need a little less liquid than a US recipe you can get to work.
There's a thread with some observations (and really helpful answers from others) here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/45456/european-flours-and-hydration
I'd also add that posting a photo of your bakes on here, with an outline of the recipe and technique is a brilliant way to get advice. Active members of TFL are (almost without exception) encouraging and really helpful with ideas and suggestions.
As for books, "Flour Water Salt Yeast" by Ken Forkish would be a great place to start. Chad Robertson's "Tartine" is a wonderful book, but probably not for the early stages. I also found the French Culinary Institute's "The Fundamental Techniques of Classic Bread Baking" really helpful, if you like a very structured approach and are using an electric mixer, such as a KitchenAid.
Hope that helps and happy baking! Colin.
Thanks for the reply Colin,
I hope I've got my head around percentages (in a very simple way) now so let's see...
100g of flour and 100g water makes a 100% hydration?
100g of flour and 50g water makes a 50% hydration?
To keep my starter fed I'm adding 100g of flour each day so should be adding 100g (ml) of water as well? I'm picking up that European wheat doesn't absorb as much water as North American wheat so should I be putting less water in? I may be getting this all mixed up as I'm wondering if these hydration rates people are talking about refer to my dough mix and not the starter? Any simple clarification would be great.
I've got a copy of Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast on order, thanks for the tip.
Aidan
How it works: The flour is the "whole". Everything else is expressed as a percentage of the flour.
So a recipe might have:
flour: 100%
while: 80%
wholemeal: 20%
water: 62%
salt: 2%
yeast 2%
and to put that into numbers, for a large loaf with 500g flour, then you need
flour 500g, of which 20% (100g) is wholemeal and 80% (400g) is white.
(20% of 500 is 20*500/100 = 100)
Water would be 310g, (that's 62% of that 500g), yeast & salt at 10g each.
It lets you scale the recipe up or down as required - assuming you have an idea of the final dough/loaf weight's relation to the flour you put into it.
Here the recipe has 62% hydration overall.
A 100% starter has the same weight (100%) of water as flour. If you add 123.4g flour into it, you also add 123.4g water.
And personally, I'd avoid the Tartine or FWSY books myself. This style of loaf is not a traditional British bread style. They produce big loaves full of large glossy holes that your butter/jam/marmalade/honey will fall through and make a mess. (Although the technique to make those holes is not purely down to hydration) I've absolutely no idea where the fascination came from to make these hugely overly hydrated breads came from. Some masochist wanting to inflict their pain on lowly bread makers while laughing to themselves as they watch the butter melt through the holes by the sounds of it. It's a good recipe for ciabatta though. You can make them with 12% protein British flour - I used to think that our UK/European flours were weaker than the American/Canadian ones, but since making some Tartine loaves myself I've changed my mind (slightly) and I've no plans to make any more. Still - cheapest way to make water stand upright... You can make a fine sourdough at 63% hydration. The dough is easy to work, quick to shape (Which is holds very well).
Just my opinion and my starters are fed with exact weight for weight flour to water. (and they live in the fridge)
-Gordon
Many thanks drogon for the explanation of percentages. It makes sense now!
...I note the passion in your views of Tartine style loaves! My primary objective at present is to make a tasty, sliceable loaf that the family will allow me to use to replace the bread we buy currently. Our local baker's bread is far superior to the bread baked on the premises at the supermarket but I feel there must be more taste, texture and variety to be had.
You are very welcome, Aidan. As A BakEr and Drogon (far greater bakers than I) have done admirable replies to your question, I won't add more, other than to say that you might save yourself a lot of frustration by starting with a lower hydration and working your way up - handling wet dough is intimidating for new bakers.
I mostly use the (UK) Allinson strong bread flour and started to get some decent results at 57% hydration, and can now get up to 63%, but am not yet sufficiently skilled to handle dough above that satisfactorily. Just now 64% on my regular loaf would be a disaster.
Also high hydration doughs aren't an end in themselves - it shouldn't be a competition, even if one admires other's skilfully-handled highly hydrated doughs with a hint of envy. More important to produce a loaf that makes you feel good and strive for the next step.
Hope that was helpful and happy baking! Colin.
I regularly make an overnight yeasted bread that has 70% hydration: Photo below:
(No crumb shot, sorry, I sold it!)
This is 50% stoneground wholemeal and 50% of my usual white bread flour (I've switched to FWP Matthews now, premium organic at 12% protein). I do use the big mixer for these though and often make 2-4 at a time. I think make 2 or more helps in some cases too. However, (for 2 large loaves) 550g SG wholemeal flour, 550g white, 18g salt, 3.6g dried yeast (Bioreal organic) and 770g water. Knead in the mixer for a good 10 minutes then into a tub overnight in a coolish room (18°C is my target, but it's a couple of degrees warmer right now) In the morning, turn out and do a couple of stretch & folds, scale, shape and prove in a couche - should take no more than an hour for the proofing in a warm room then bake. It's not as difficult as it sounds - if doing it by hand, give it a 2-hour autolyze before the mixer.
My 100% wholemeal is done the same way but at 80% hydration and a 2-hour autolyze before the knead. It can be a little sticky in the morning though. These always go in tins.
Regular sourdoughs - 63%, Overnight whites: 62%, Croissants: 58%, Pain Brie: 50% (knead by whacking with a rolling pin for 15 minutes!)
I keep meaning to make a video of my "low impact" method for breads - it makes hydrations of 65% manageable without flinging dough all over the room.
-Gordon
Just another question if I may whilst I'm getting such good advice....
Understanding that it's the action of the yeast fermentation that produces the CO2 that gives the gas bubbles. Is it the gluten that traps this and keeps it in the bread? Am I kneading bread to mix it or am I doing it to stretch out the gluten to give the right structure in the bread to make it springy and catch the fermentation gas? Can I knead too much?
The kneading is to form the gluten, the gluten gives structure and traps the gas. If you 'over knead', the dough can suddenly collapse and go quite sticky, if this happens it is sometimes possible to 'fix' by adding more flour and continuing for a short while..... but unlikely.
Generally it is not really a problem when kneading by hand. A machine however can bring about this situation.
Thanks for the replies, that's helpful. In the Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's recipe from his River Cottage Everyday book (Page 68 for the starter and page 69 for the recipe.), he says to knead for 15 minutes and not all recipes seem to echo this.
Looking back at drogon's recipe and A BakEr's additional comments, plus Chockswahay's I'm going to run with the thirty seconds recommendation plus some later folding before the final proofing.
I've just made up the dough according to the recipe and will leave it overnight in a cool place to rise. Proving in the morning early and then the bake and I hope, fresh tasty bread for breakfast! I'll report back and many thanks for all the help and guidance!
Dear Forum Members,
This morning I did my final folding and divided the 500g of dough into two loaves and proofed them in tins for a tad over 1.5 hours at room temperature (18 C approximately). I then baked at 230C (fan) for 15 minutes, followed by 20 minutes at 200C.
The results (although I say it myself) were really rewarding! The loaf was tasty, easy to slice soft inside and had a lovely crunchy crust. I'd like to post some pictures but I can't get the insert/edit image icon to find my picture files.
Many thanks to the Forum members that sent me recipes, advice, and information. It worked!
Aidan
Thanks for the post, A BakEr,
First off, I'm going to get into the right routine to provide the bread we need through the week for the family and the recipe I've just used was perfect. I may do a bake twice or three times a week or I may do one bake and freeze a batch. Once I've got into a routine that fits in with the rest of the things we do, I'll try a new recipe.
Our kids will be home from University soon so they will probably want a bread more akin to a whiter, sandwich type of loaf so we will see!
In the Country Bread recipe there is a line:
100 grams leaven @ 100% hydration 50:50 bread:whole wheat.
Leaven (bearing in mind I'm in the UK) is yeast or starter? The hydration is described as a bread:whole wheat ratio, which I didn't quite understand!
Any explanation would be great