Hi -- am new to the site and hope I'm not repeating an old question, but I've noticed this for years and it goes against everything baking pros teach...
We make pizza dough roughly once a week. Sort of a neopolitan dough I suppose, but have done it for so long and am usually in a hurry so don't worry about measurements. Typically use King Arthur AP flour (or whatever I've got), not much red star yeast, salt, lukewarm water, and optional sugar & olive oil depending on what feels good. (1/4 - 1/2 tsp yeast to about 6-7 cups flour.) Sometimes do a short hydration step before another knead and sometimes I don't bother. Nothing out of the ordinary and am definitely not going for artisan anything -- we bake it on pizza stones in the oven and tastes great.
What I can't figure out is the whole elasticity/letting is rest to relax thing. I used to whip up a dough in the morning and use it later in the afternoon/evening -- figured I was giving it plenty of time to rest. About half the time it was easy to work with and the other half it was struggling to stretch rubber band dough.
I noticed one night while making a last-minute decision to make pizza that by making the usual dough (added more yeast and a bit more sugar to get it to rise quickly, and let it sit for about an hour) that the dough was very easy to work with. Tried this a few more times with the same result. The dough rolls/stretches wonderfully.
Last night let some dough sit overnight in the fridge and brought it in to warm for about 45 minutes, and it was rubber bandy again.
What the heck is happening? Why would letting it rest longer increase the tendency to spring back to the same shape?
Very curious to know if this happens to other people.
Thanks! Monica
Gluten can develop by itself, during the fermentation process, given enough time. I think that's what is happening to your dough. It's contrary to the old "common wisdom" that it was necessary to knead in order for gluten to develop. A little manipulation (typically stretch and fold, but I imagine that your kneading would suffice) early in the fermentation, and then just let it go... the gluten will come in time. Given still more time, it will break down too, that's "over-proofing".
Monica
I think Les explains quite well what's going on.
Two things you can try. Boosting the hydration of the dough should help, as well as stretching it out in stages. Let it rest on the counter 10-20 minutes cover by a towel, and then stretch it further. Repeat as necessary.
Usually, by the time the toppings are ready, so is the dough.
Good luck.
dobie
If you keep notes on what flour you use and the hydration level of each batch of dough, you should be able to pin down what is different from batch to batch. The protein level of the flour would definitely make a difference in the results, so using what is on hand deals you a bit of a wild card. I make pizza dough in large batches, up to 25 lbs. at a time. The flour I use is 11% protein and the hydration level is 65%. Olive oil and yeast, no sugar. This makes a New York style pizza dough. The dough is shaped into 12 oz. balls and rested in the refrigerator (or at refrigerator temperature on ice) for 8 to 10 hours. I have kept dough balls in the refrigerator for up to three days and frozen dough balls will be good for 3 weeks.
When making the pizzas, if a dough is torn while stretching (sometimes the grandkids make their own pizzas) I will put that dough back into a ball and let it rest for 40 minutes or so. If you try to re-work the dough immediately it will be very tight and "unstretchable." The ambient temperature when you are stretching the doughs can make huge difference. I am working at an outside oven, so very warm days my doughs are so soft that handling can be tricky, and on cool Fall days when the evening temps are dipping into the 40's, the dough balls are stiff, cold and slow to stretch. With small batches, you can work with a variety of doughs and make great pizza. With big batches of dough, turning out pizzas at a fast rate, having a consistent product is very desirable. Best of luck with your pizza making…..Embth
Monica
Like embth, I don't use sugar either. But, then again, nor do I use olive, or any other oil. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I think in particular, that the oil would help with dough extensibility. Perhaps, sugar (even more so than for the flavor), would as well.
My hydration is about 66%, very close to embths. One of the dangers of building a dough by feel, is inaccuracy. Please don't think I am discouraging you from doing so. I am not. Building by feel is a great (tho, risky) business.
Things that I do similar to embth's practices are, dividing the dough into 12 (or 10-13) oz portions that I generally retard for a day if possible (and up to a week). I use them both for pies and baguettes. Usually AP flour, but if I'm out of it, Bread flour (or a combination thereof).
Things I do different than embth, well, 25 lbs at a time for one thing. I thought my 5 lb batch was large, but...
I also suspect embth is cooking for a crew larger than two.
I also don't know what form of outdoor oven embth is using (is it a WFO?), but ambient temperature surely plays a key roll in extensibility.
Anyway, good luck again.
dobie
Thank you all for your comments. I've used an actual recipe for Neopolitan dough before, but I think (if memory serves) that I started adding a bit of sugar and more yeast as I would decide later and later in the day to make dough -- figured that the sugar and extra yeast would allow it to rise a bit in the short amount of time. The olive oil was absolutely a flavor thing (my husband will literally drink shots of olive oil if offered) -- so I figured adding it into the dough would make him happy. He still drowns it afterwards, so I probably don't need to add it beforehand...:)
I admit that I'm not consistent at all -- and have tried no-knead methods, short kneads for hydration followed by a few min kneads, etc. -- have tried many things so probably don't have a method consistent enough to allow for someone to figure out what I'm doing to create the elasticity... But thanks for trying. I did notice what embth said about temperature -- and that again went against what I'd thought I'd learned about gluten -- and that cold temps allowed for gluten relaxation... The dough was cold (even after sitting out for a while to warm up) -- so perhaps that was part of the problem. I would have thought that cold dough would be super-relaxed and easy to work...
I think I need to start reading more posts and educating myself a LOT more. Thanks very much!
(And, sorry -- this is undoubtedly a question for another post -- but I'm amazed at those of you that can keep your doughs in the fridge for so long -- even overnight I [and especially my kids] notice a strong yeasty -- almost bitter - flavor developing in the dough, so we rarely use it after the 2nd day. I wonder if the sugar is the culprit...) Thanks. Monica
Monica
Last things first (as usual), it might be the sugar component, but I don't know. On the other hand, it just might be the flavor that is unfamiliar.
I do notice when I make mine (probably very much the same as you do yours), minus the sugar and oil (tho not knowing your hydration, I can only suppose) that as the week goes on, there does become a bit of a sourdough aroma and flavor that happens.
Personally, I think it's a good thing. Your children, might think otherwise. But they can eat it or wear it, as my Mother used to say.
It should almost smell of alcohol and perhaps a little sour like vinegar. But believe me, it is good dough and makes good bread. I would dare say, better than when new.
Room temp is your friend when it comes to stretching dough out, believe me. I normally take it out of the fridge an hour or two before I intend to stretch a pie. Maybe, after the first hour, take it out of the container and onto the counter, dusted with flour enough to keep it from sticking. Flatten it out a bit and cover with a towel. Then go from there.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a cheap old digital scale (or a scale of any kind), and try to figure out your hydrations, just to get a feel for it. Then, once your know, you can go back to 'by feel'.
But don't give up, it'll happen.
I've gotta run, good luck.
dobie
Thanks Dobie -- It probably doesn't help that my kids HATE sourdough. Although to be honest the yeasty/bitter thing going on isn't that exactly (I've worked with bigas (levains?) -- forget the terminology -- but this is just sort of yucky. and the dough turns a bit grayish. Sorry -- very much not a scientist here... Although I also usually throw it out instead of trying it cooked -- it might taste fine that way...
I do have a kitchen scale -- should use the darn thing (went through a year of elimination diet experiments with an allergic kid and those mostly gag-inducing gluten-free experiments left me loving how I can throw wheat flour into almost any combination and come up with something edible -- sort of left the scale in the back of the cabinet...) No offense to you gluten-free people out there -- we did get fairly good at some cracker combinations -- just am glad we got to add back the wheat...
Monica
I believe the gray comes from oxidization. One way to avoid that is to place a lightly oiled plastic wrap on the top surface.
When I get the 'sour' smell later in the week, it is minor, not like a true SD. When baked, it is even less evident. Certainly not even like a 'mild' sourdough bread. Your kids would probably not even taste it at all, particularly considering it's Pizza (with all the other flavors).
If I might suggest, why not take the scale out and just once, do a 65% (or so) hydration dough by weight. Just to be sure what it feels like. Then, when you go back to mixing by mind's eye, you will know what 65% should feel like.
To determine hydration, you would divide the weight of the water by the weight of the flour. Example; 20 oz water to 30 oz flour equals 66% hydration.
dobie
if your kids are like most kids and poking their heads into the refrigerator every few minutes, your dough may not be staying quite cold enough. Try the notebook idea….write down what you used, what you did with it, and what you liked and did not like about the resulting dough. After a few dough making sessions, you will know what works for you. My pizza dough destined for the wood fired oven does not contain sugar because in the high temperature of that oven, the sugar in the dough would darken too quickly. There are as many ways to make pizza as there are people making pizza. There are many books on the subject which you may be able to find at your local library. Also, check out: www.pizzamaking.com Have fun! Embth
Hello again Monica, In re-reading this thread especially your conversation with Dobie about sourdough, I wonder how your youngsters decided they hated "sourdough?" If their opinion is based on commercial "sourdough" bread, it may help to know that such breads often are not sourdough at all. Usually it is just commercial bread with a bit of vinegar added to give it a sour flavor. If that is what I knew of sourdough bread, I'd hate it too! Making bread or pizza dough with a good (sourdough) starter brings out the flavors of the grain nicely. The bread and pizza dough I make is not sour tasting and I like it that way. Other folks like a strong "sour" flavor and they learn how to work their ingredients to get that result. My starter goes into a lot of different breads here. Sometimes I speed up the dough's schedule by adding a bit of yeast, other times I can let it come along slowly which gives the best results. It is all about experimenting and finding what suits your tastes.
you bring the oven up to 750 degrees F and a pizza bakes in minutes. We don't often make more than 5 to 8 pizzas in a firing (perhaps loading bread before or after having the oven at pizza temperatures). Our record for pizzas in one evening stands at 34 pies.
embth
I guess, considering Wisconsin and all, I should have expected that.
Record of 34 in one evening? Totally blows away my personal best of 12 or so (and that was for a big party). But yes, the high heat of a WFO is so fine for Pizza, any season.
I've been watching all these BBC series productions of (Tudor, Victorian, Edwardian) historical farm life and one thing in common thru the ages, is how they fire up the WFO and bake in descending order of required heat. I haven't really done that yet (with a full plan in mind), but I intend to this summer. From Pizza, to Roast and Bread, to Veg and Dessert.
WFOs are great fun (particularly when the grid fails).
dobie
your recipe is probably somewhat different each time you make it, so it doesn't seem overly surprising that the dough doesn't act and feel the same every time.
them in the presence of water from bonds that create gluten that cause elasticity - the rubber band effect of dough. 5 things can cause more or the strengthening of these protein bonds that cause gluten. More time, more water to a point, acid as in SD, salt and kneading. No knead bread recipes work well to form gluten to hold the CO2 in the dough matrix that yeast produce because of high hydration, long time, salt and acid if a SD recipe. Non SD, kneaded breads work well because of the kneading and salt even though there isnlt an acid and less hydration.
What makes the dough extensible, less rubber bandy and allows it not to spring back as much is protease enzyme activity.
There a many enzymes in bread. Amaylase enzymes break down starch into the sugars that yeast and LAB need to feed on reproduce acids make ethanol CO2 and acids. Protease breaks protein bonds like gluten into amino acids. Breaking these bonds makes the dough less springy. Protease needs time, water and heat to work. Every 18 F increase in temperature doubles the activity of protease activity to a point where the temperature is too high and denatures the enzyme - around 140 F. High salt can reduce protease activity The other thing that breaks gluten strands are the bran in whole grains.
So if you want less springy dough, do the things it takes to reduce gluten formation and promote protease activity. You could get about 20-25% whole grains in the mix without many people even knowing, use a flour with less protein to begin with like store bought AP at 10% protein, keep the temperature at around 75 F, don't get too wet with it by staying around 68% hydration if using US or Canadian flour, don't use SD, lower the salt a bit to 1.5%, don't retard your dough and use a no knead recipe - or some combination of these things. Many combinations work great for pizza.
Now if you want to make bread you would choose a much different combination but you still need some protease activity - just less of it.
It is amazing how much science you might want to know to make wise dough choices.
http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.HTML