Buns: Texture, Mouthfeel, Culture?
Looking for whole wheaters advice. My buns keep coming out not very bun-like. All too often they turn out having to be consumed as open faced burgers because the bun has risen too much and is a mouthful and messy.
How to make softer, but well cooked whole wheat buns? Perhaps lower oven temp so that they take longer and cook less on tops and bottoms?
Right now I'm on 3 attempts with my most successful being in our wood oven with the air temp at 300 and floor temp at 400, however slightly undercooked. Oddly enough I'm getting worse at cooking in our indoor Wolf Range kitchen oven and better at the WFO, but having to do 40 buns in a small WFO is TOUGH.
So perhaps I answered my own question here, but everytime I post an issue here, the TFLers swoop in and save the day.
Recipe for buns: 100% hydration dough, 100% hydration starter and also have done with 75% hydration dough, both are similar in result, rise is high and hard to eat as a bun. Too big.
Last batch using the ciabatta method of not shaping, just dividing and baking. First few minutes at 500F and lowering temp every few minutes until 425, about 25 min bake time. I have to make sure the product comes out almost weightless or else I know it didnt cook fully.
Previous bun batch that I actually shaped into small boules. These were good, but, not as soft as I'd like. They just arent the kind of bun like texture that we think about when we visualize buns. Or maybe I'm just shooting for something that cant be attained with whole wheat? I wonder if I'm so used to fast food bun culture that my perception is slightly skewed. Maybe this is the way buns used to be: big and mighty.
Thanks for your time everyone.
Even the amount of fat in milk will do it, but you should boil milk before adding it to a dough mix or it will adversely effect the gluten development. Yoghurt works well and gives an excellent flavour, too. If you boil a mixture of water and yoghurt, the yoghurt will curdle but that doesn't adversely effect the finished article.
Or you could use a small amount of cornflour in the mix. For a loaf-sized batch of dough you'd use about a tablespoonful.
[Edited for afterthought]
This time, I think you're baking at too high a temperature. The smaller amount of dough will react differently to the heat, so I'd try baking at 390-400°F instead. I don't make rolls so that's a guess. Maybe a roll-maker can offer better advise.
Also, if you use some oil, mix the flour and water roughly before adding the oil.
No not adding any fats or oils, should have tried that by now!
Hi Natyam I reckon your buns/rolls look pretty good, most people have problems with wholewheat and getting a decent lift! If you are wanting to achieve a softer crumb then this a matter of adding milk, butter/oil or both to your dough, you didn't indicate if you are currently adding any of these to the mx. Eggs too will assist but the bread will colour up more with the addition of any of these. Do you bake the rolls on a sheet in the WFO? Another thing if you feel the rolls are getting to big for the monks to handle with their delicate hands then reduce the scaled weight. It looks as though you are fortunate enough to have a bun divider at your disposal. You can also make the rolls into rounds and place onto trays and flatten them with the palm of your hand when they are half proved, it gives a nice flat bed for the goodies to be piled on without to much height and problems getting the roll into the mouth for decent bite . Kind regards Derek
We use milk, butter, oil, no eggs though. Rolls in WFO go straight in. lol Delicate hands! hey, we do hard work!! :)
Will try the fats and flattening with hand for sure.
Bun divider?
Many are vegan it seems and that would effect the bum recipe an a large way For a small enriched bun you want to get the temperature down to 375 F max. You can brish the tops with butter when they go in and the topa sna bottoms with milk as they come oit to keep them bun soft
'I prefere WW bums with butter and cream for part of the liquid with milk for the rest
Yes milk and cream from our own cows, we have 4 really healthy Holsteins. Will have to start enriching the dough.
Busy day, but wanted to respond asap.
Thanks for replying!!!
Ok, will lower temp, start enriching the dough, and give a little pat to retard oven spring some, but not too much probably.
I will keep you updated!
The flattening with the palm of the hand is more for the shape than retarding, it will lower the height of the rolls and make them flatter, not so much height. they will still want proving, being flatter and thinner they will bake through a bit quicker too.
Bun divider, It looks like the dough pieces have been divided with a bun cutter, we have a small round one that cuts 14 pieces from a dough round. Some small bakeries are lucky enough to have a cutter and rounder whereby 36 rolls are divided and rounded by the machine!
I did that with a bench scraper, Ya, I know I have mad skills when it comes to cutting dough. :)
So, just to be a little more detailed today, would I replace water with milk, and add some oil, cream, or butter in there too? Or still use some water, 50/50 water and milk?
Dropping the temperature as well might be all you need to get the result you're looking for. You can always try more milk next time, if the Holsteins are giving sufficient. If not, try adding a little olive oil next time.
Will do that. Yes we get about 10 to 15 gallons a day, half for yogurt, half for milk, or somewhere around there. Monks milk twice a day in the busy season, like when the mother just had the calf. Holsteins give less milk than our previous jersey's, but the jersey breed is aggressive! Ive had a few one on ones with an adult cow running at me full speed. But holstein milk is almost half cream, its so creamy the milk is basically yellow.
I suggest you investigate the possibilities of using it in your baking. I particularly like to use it in spelt naan. The two produce a very soft dough that's especially nice to work with. It could work nicely with your rolls, too.
And do I see scones with yellow clotted cream in the future?
Making clotted cream
that is awesome.
You do need a good scone, however. Something to work on, perhaps.
Dan Lepard's sweet buttermilk scones
on my breakfast baking list. Your a dangerous man, Jon!
It's nice to know that my efforts are appreciated.
By the way, cheese scones are also delicious. Though not with clotted cream and jam.
Oh, and just in case: having 'a cream tea' does not involve putting cream in tea. You probably wouldn't be surprised how many people...
and cool it before using in the dough. Do not boil. It just has to get warm enough to make a froth on top. If you add ice cubes for the water, you can cool it down quickly.
http://cookingwithkimberly.com/how-to-scald-milk-for-baking/
(second link removed, not so good, they boil the milk) you want to stay under the 100°C boiling point 80°C I believe.
Will follow all these great tips. I knew you guys had some heavy artillery fully loaded.
Thanks, Mini.
I did mention it in my first post but should have reiterated. Very important, as scalding destroys the glutathione in the milk, which would otherwise make for a coarser, lower volume crumb. The scald point is 82°C (180°F), however, and I often take it to 90°C without a problem.
for those temps and details. :)
add cooked and squashed yams or pumpkin or potato to make nice soft buns. Flattening them out like little plates will take care of the high rise and spread out the shape, can even use a dowel or small rolling pin. Some scores are better than others for making buns spread out, those that flower petal from the almost centre leaving the top middle intact as opposed to cutting across the middle to encourage height. Cutting something like a locking washer or gear encourages edge expansion. A scissors can be great for those kinds of cuts. (on a large scale, check out Swedish tea rings) Was watching a video today on buns and although they were using white flour, the idea of reshaping after cutting helps the skin surface tension for a better textured bun. Both inside and out.
Making a rising gauge might help with the dough rising. Pinch off and shape a ping pong size ball of dough and squish into a narrow glass before the bulk rise, cover and keep it nearby to the rest of the dough. The more narrow the glass, the easier it is to mark and read.
Mark the present level and a mark at "double." Divide the upper section into thirds.
When you see the dough about 1/3 risen, leave the gauge alone but do a folding of the dough. When the dough in the gauge rises to the next third, deflate and shape the dough into rolls. When the dough is doubled in the gauge, flatten out the shaped buns and at the same time deflate the gauge. With the next rise you can judge when to bake. 2/3 mark is a good place to start but you will know more checking the buns themselves.
Using the gauge, you can fold the dough numerous times if needed and still keep track of gas formation. Folding the dough will tighten the structure and reduce the size of the bubbles but the gas should remain pretty constant.
and look fantastic, compared to all my other bun/roll attempts before. No crumb shot because we havent had dinner yet. I just wanted to quickly share this, right away. Im excited. I did try one small on and it was awesome. Soft and buttery. Half milk half water and a bake at 350 with a butter glaze at the end. You guys are amazing.
I patted them down some too for a bun test, only one or two pressed down alot to see if they were bun-like, and they are. Yes.
images sideways for some reason
Really pleased to see you managing to adapt your process and make such big improvements in such a short time. It's pretty impressive.I'm sure the other monks are pleased with your rapid progress too.
Wow, big difference. I look forward to the crumb shot and to hear how they were enjoyed.
Oh, Yeah! :)