September 6, 2007 - 3:43pm
Formula issues in Leader's Local Breads
Based on a few comments in different threads here and there, and the fact that I am just starting trying to bake recipes from this book, I am also finding (potential) errors in the book. I figured it might make sense to start a separate thread where we can all exchange errors we found, and perhaps even solutions.
For starters I have tried to contact Bread Alone with the message that there appear to be errors and asking for contact info for Daniel himself. I don't know why, but I am not hopeful in getting a response, but we'll see. Meanwhile in some follow up posts, I'll describe some issues that I have found so far.
--dolf
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In the formula for liquid levain, page 77 the table lists 160 grams of water and calls that 60%. The combined flour is 50 grams and adds up to 100% (as it should). Thus 160 grams would be 160%, not 60%. However, that seems to produce and excessively wet initial step. If, on the other hand, the 60% was correct, the weight should have been 60 grams (oz of course would also have to be adjusted to 2.1).
Not knowing enough about this build method, either one could be true. The final starter, after 10 days or so, settles at 130% hydration. The answer may be important in that the build may fail completely with the wrong numbers.
Note also that the instructions do not call for discarding any of the starter built so far until a regular feeding schedule with 50 grams is reached. If it takes the full 10 days you will have accumulated 1,245 grams (2.74 lb) of liquid starter.
--dolf
Daniel's response:
--dolf
My Bread Aventures
This may not be news to you, but I had to think a little to figure out what the hydration level of a given starter is. After each feeding, the new starter has water from the feeding itself, plus whatever amount of water was in the old piece of starter. The new ingredients, over time, dilute the old starter away, so the stable hydration percentage can be calculated as follows:
Add the percentages new water and flour in a feeding together, and then compute the percentage new water divided by this total. That is the final hydration level.
--dolf
I don't know what I was smoking. The first part is correct in that final hydration settles on the combination of old starter plus new food. Of course, over time, this is the same is the percentage water in the feeding schedule. Duh!
--dolf
On page 82, the table for putting together the buckwheat levain calls for 300g liquid levain, or 60%. The flour component is 125g (100%), so 60% should be 75g. As stated, 460g of levain would be produced, with correction it would be 235g.
The final dough formula in the table calls for 125g buckwheat levain (25%). Flour component is 500g (100%). Thus 25% is indeed 125g. The text below the table, mentions to discard the rest of the levain. Thus we would be discarding either 335g, or with the correction 110g. The latter seems more reasonable, unless the original amount was correct because that amount/ratio is needed. Suggestions anyone?
--dolf
Daniel's response:
--dolf
My Bread Aventures
Thank you for doing this - much appreciated. I want to make the buckwheat batards and just wanted to clarify so I don't make a goof. Making the buckwheat levain is as follows: 75g liquid levain (100% liquid?); 35g water; and 125 grams buckwheat flour. Correct?
Then the amount this makes requires a discard of 110g in order to use the correct amount of 125g buckwheat levain in the dough recipe. Is there any reason not to make the amount that would result in producing exactly 125g? Not trying to split hairs.
With Daniel's correction, you start with the liquid levain (described on page 76). According to its formula this levain is at 130% hydration, once finished (page 79). Based on that levain you indeed use 75g, add 35 g water, and 125 g buckwheat flour. That produces 235g of starter and the recipe for the final dough uses 125g, so, as you say, your discard is 110g. This is also the amount I mention in the original description of the issue.
I suppose there is no real reason why you could not scale down making the buckwheat starter to have a smaller discard if it bother you.
--dolf
My Bread Aventures
I just mixed up the levain for the buckwheat batards but something is just not right. If you now use the above (supposedly corrected) amounts there is simply no way to mix in the flour. It is so very stiff it just cannot be done; like trying to mix only a few drops of water into a bucket of flour. In the text Leader says it should be a paste but no way. Maybe that is why he printed to use 300g liquid starter to make the levain into buckwheat. I don't know.
I had converted some of my firm starter to liquid this morning so it would be ready for using in the levain tonight. I ended up dumping the whole amount I made in but still feel I should dump some more water in it. I'm stumped. I'm not sure I should even attempt this recipe tomorrow.
The levain is simply a big ball of heavy clay. What to do?
BTW I'm called "Dolf" not "Dolfs", but that's a detail.
I haven't actually baked this bread, so what I can offer is some analysis of the formula. I think it confirms your suspicion in terms of hydration of the final dough being impossible, but also suggests that the "correction" is correct, but there may be a hydration error in the final dough.
- Start with the assumption that the liquid levain from page 76 is (once mature) at 130% hydration.
- That means that any given mass of this levain contains 56% (in weight) water (130/(130+100)). Thus the required 75g contains 42.4g water and 32.6 g flour.
- The buckwheat levain is then completed with 125g flour and an additional 35g water.
- Thus the total flour in the buckwheat levain is 32.6 + 125 = 157.6 and the total water is 42.4 + 35 = 77.4g.
- That makes the hydration of the resulting buckwheat levain 77.4/157.6 = 50%, a firm, but not unreasonably so, levain.
If the "original" amount of liquid levain had been used, using same math: final water is 168g from liquid levain + 35g = 203g. Final flour (in buckwheat levain) is 132g + 125g = 257g. Thus buckwheat levain would be at 203/257 = 80% hydration. Still more firm than liquid.Let's use these numbers to compute hydration for final dough.
I can see how you consider the "corrected" buckwheat levain to stiff. On the other hand consider that I feed my firm starter with 45g water and 90g flour, or 50% hydration, which is the same (and works fine). I just made an Essential's Columbia with it (pictures tomorrow) with a final hydration of 70%. If you continue with the "corrected recipe," however, you end up with a very stiff final dough. Way too stiff to be reasonable for the results you want I think. So you are definitely right about that.
This conclusion is supported by the description of mixing the final dough, which states "the dough will be smooth and very stretchable" and "the dough will not clean the sides of the bowl". The original approach would have produced a wetter final dough, but still 62% puts it in the category of a "firm" dough (firm enough the clean the sides of the bowl), which still does not sound right.
I'll pass this same info on to Daniel, and we'll see what he says. My suggestion would be to approach final hydration of around 67%. You could get there by using more of the liquid levain to make the buckwheat levain, but even going back to 300g will not get you there (only brings you to 62%, see above). The innoculation of the buckwheat levain is quite reasonable, in the corrected approach, so instead I would do it by adding more water to the final dough (because I still believe the 50% hydration for buckwheat levain is quite reasonable, and likely correct).
Since I don't know what you already did, you'll have to do your own calculations, or go by feel and dough description. Hope this helps!
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
I think I have you name corrected now at least. :o)
Thanks for that super detailed response. It is so late forgive me if I cannot digest it all right now. In the essence of time I think I will take your advice and add more water to the final dough or I may just skip the recipe entirely. I'll make that call when I wake up tomorrow morning.
I think I ended up using 200g of 100% liquid levain instead of the 75g. I had already mixed up the firm-to-liquid conversion and later realized I should have formulated it to 130% hydration but figured that wouldn't be such a big deal to correct. Still, this hunk of levain could take an eye out if I hurled it at someone's head. :o) I'll just leave it and head to bed and see what it looks like in the morning.
I've never eaten buckwheat and have no idea what it will taste like. Not sure it is worth all this trouble. Dolf, thank you again for your kind response - I really appreciate your help.
I'm waiting for my "Traditional Challah" dough (Rose's new version) to complete rising so I can stick it in the fridge for baking tomorrow. My Essential's Columbia is cooled now, but it is too late to cut and eat (as a diabetic I shall not be eating carbs at midnight), so I'll cut and take pics tomorrow AM.
I fully expected the analysis to be over your head (at least for the time of day), but just look at the final numbers. As you're "thank you" came in, I was just writing another note, which is partially pre-empted by your reply.
I realized you had probably started with a 100% hydration levain. In the corrected formula, that would result in a 44.6% hydration, very stiff, buckwheat levain (the ball you describe), and 57.7% hydration final dough (yes, I am an engineer so I have a spreadsheet for this). Since you also told me you applied 200g of that, rather than 75, it means 160% and makes for a 60% hydration buckwheat starter (that's doable). Then proceeding with the final dough formula unmodified would give the final a hydration of 60%. Still way to low.
The suggestion would be to add more water to the final dough, in the amount of 340g total (corresponding to 68%, and 40g extra), for a final hydration of 66.9%. Use 71% water, 355g or 55g extra, for final hydration of 69.5%.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
Dolf, the levain had puffed a tiny bit before I went to bed but it was so unsavory looking this morning and no puff in it at all I decided I'm not interested in putting good flour and hard work into a recipe for which I'm so unsure. I am making a note of all your notes - (you sound like Bill...hehe).
That levain doesn't even have any spring or give when touched. Note Leader says to stir it to invigorate and deflate it before applying to the dough. It can't do that since it is a heavy lump of dough. Based on the description of the dough not cleaning the bowl I think I would have to add far more water which would be fine but I just don't trust the outcome at this point.
Hey, I'm all for a challenge but this has quickly lost my interest. Darn, and they look so good in the photo.
Hey, I don't blame you. I sent the question to Daniel last night. He wrote back saying:
I suppose at this point he is unsure to and needs to replicate and work out what the issue is.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
Dolf, thanks so much for the correspondence to Daniel and please thank him on our behalf for taking time to bake this bread to test his recipe again. I do still intend to bake it so I'll be anxiously awaiting the final outcome. I baked the Genzano Country Bread a couple days ago and it was outstanding. I am looking forward to trying many more recipes from this book!
Dolf, I won't keep bugging you about this but I'm curious if you ever heard from Daniel about the buckwheat recipe test. If not, no problem, I'm sure he's very busy and will get back to you plus I have lots of other recipes on the list to try. Thanks again.
I contacted him on 9/28 and he responded that because of the Jewish holidays, he had been too busy. He then mentioned he would have it by the end of what was then next week (in other words, this week).
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
Many thanks, dolf.
I've got my hands on the book and after 10 min. wanted to try this recipe.... It looks interesting and the buckwheat portion seems about right to me. I have noticed that a lot of buckwheat acts like rye, no gluten, so that the levain on page 82 will not rise much. If made with the 300g of levain, it just might rise but if made with 75g I'm betting it will just form little cracks and gasses will escape without any rise. Better to go by the clock on this one and not by "double." I remember combining buckwheat with yeast and didn't get much more than a hockey puck. My instinct tells me to use 75g of levain more water and about 30g wheat flour too. For the desired effect as written on the page.
Mini Oven
I haven't heard yet. I sent a follow up once a little over a week ago, and he apologized, but nothing yet. I get the impression he is not in his bakery much and is very busy. I do not want to "remind" him every few days, so I'll wait a little longer. Read this thread carefully and you might get some pointers as to how the formula should really read.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
is set in my sights and I'm plowing ahead using my firm rye starter.
I'm onto the recipe (page 81) and took Bill's conversion numbers to make a liquid levain from firm starter: "You can just feed 24g with 143g of water and 100g of flour." I found this to be too dry for 130% (60g rye and 40g wheat) so I added a little water, when I was done, it came out to exactly 300g. (???) After 8 hours it has expanded a little more than one third (see page 80) so I added 35g water and 125g Buckwheat flour with no problems. (The left over 335g buckwheat levain will go to pancakes in the morning when I mix up the dough. It does seem like quite a waste but maybe the mass is important.) Will report back later with the loaf. Nighty night...
Mini O
I'd hate for someone to be put off buying or baking from this wonderful book by these errors. I would say bake from the metric, to reduce your chance of hitting an error. Every bread I've made from the book is outstanding. It is a wonderful book!!
OK, here's another minor error I came across. I'm baking the Whole Spelt Loaf. There is a little inconsistency, in that the introduction states a rye sourdough and so does the ingredient chart, then later in the recipe it says a spelt sourdough. The other issue I came up against is the confusion about the number of loaves the recipe makes. It tells you to first "shape the loaf" singular, "form the dough into a pan loaf", then in the next section, it says "Let the loaveS rise until they have expanded to 1-1/2 times thier original size." I am guessing from the amount of flour that you should only be making one loaf here (?), but it could be confusing as to whether this should make one or two loaves. It doesn't give loaf pan size either.
page 101 agreed, one loaf
I also noted that instead of 2 to 2 1/2 hours to ferment, took 6 1/2 hours for me and 1 to 1 1/2 hours to proof, took 3 hours. I also changed the rack position to lower instead of middle (Prepare the oven). I like the lip of my pan to be "in the middle."
Table on p 117 shows 50g water as 65%. Total flour is 75g (100%), so 50g should be 50/70 = 66.6%, even rounded to whole numbers that is not 65%.
--dolf
Daniel's response:
Clearly he is right, and I was smoking something.
--dolf
My Bread Aventures
yeah, I tried to make the volkornbrot and noticed some funny business with his percentages. i adjusted the recipe to match his percentages and I wouldn't recommend doing that. the bread was not very good- tasted very gummy. the german farmhouse rye, parisian daily bread, and pretzels have all worked out incredibly well. let me know if you hear back from daniel.
I made the German farmhouse rye today, and I have a question for you since you have also made it. I followed the directions fairly precisely, but my loaves after baking were only about 6" in diameter. I cut a small taste (even though his directions suggest waiting until the next day to eat it!), and it tasted very good with a good chew and nice crust. I may have added a bit less yeast than called for because of his incorrect translation of grams to teaspoons. However. I may have let it rise a bit longer than was suggested too since I had to go out for a while while I was letting the loaves rise. So about how big were your loaves?
page 293 Could not understand where 400g of sourdough starter should come from (p294) so changed the Rye sourdough recipe to German sourdough 100g, water 150g, and rye flour 150g. That makes 400g starter for the next page. Also recipe calls for 125g soaked rye berries (p294) but in preparing the berries (p 293), 125g berries absorb 175g water, should then be corrected to read 300g soaked berries.
Mini O
In many sourdough-based recipes, particularly ryes, it is assumed that when your sour build has reached the same proportion as the original starter you will remove from the dough an amount equivalent to what you put in originally. Had I missed the tiny little note in Hammelman explaining this I would have had a much harder time understanding his rye bread percentages. Could something similar be happening here?
sPh
I encountered a discrepancy in instant yeast weight-to-volume conversion when I made the Rye-Fennel Crackerbread. The formula says 1.5 t = 0.3 oz = 8 g = 2% (baker's percentage)
All of the above is correct, except the 1.5 teaspoons. Eight grams of instant yeast is closer to 2.5 teaspoons. The book consistently uses a conversion factor of 1 teaspoon = 5 grams, but the reality (and I've checked this with my scale as well as seeing it published in several places) is that instant yeast weighs just a little over 3 grams per teaspoon.
Also 2% instant yeast seems like a lot, but it is the amount called for in almost all of the book's commercial-yeasted formulas. I wonder why so much? Most of the formulas I have worked with before call for 1% or less, if it's instant.
Susanfnp
http://www.wildyeastblog.com
Good catch. I have done my own measurements too (a while ago to support a formula based spreadsheet I use for automatic scaling), and I have calculated/measured a specific gravity of 0.66 for Instant Dry Yeast. That makes 8 grams equal to 2.5 teaspoons indeed.
Ironically it is because before baking for the first time I enter the percentages (and never weights or volumes) into my spreadsheet, I never caught this since my spreadsheet has the correct SG value for the yeast. I suppose I could have noticed if I bothered to compare the computed grams with the listed ones, but I only check flour and water. (In case you are wondering, I do enter one weight, which is the total weight of the final dough, or the listed total flour weight, all the other values are calculated).
--dolf
Daniel's response:
--dolf
My Bread Aventures
I have received an email from Daniel with a request to call him, so that is encouraging. I will speak to him later today.
--dolf
Spoke to Daniel. It was fairly brief as he was traveling (on the initial call I caught him on a bus, and he asked to be called back 1.5hr later, where I caught him in a taxi). He was very nice and asked about who I represent.
I told him that while I do not represent "The Fresh Loaf" in any official capacity, I am a member and offered to be a conduit to him regarding the questions about his book. He has seen TFL, but it appears not in depth, so we talked about our community a little more. We also talked about the various books out there, like Reinhart's, and Nancy Silverton, Hamelman etc.
Anyway, he mentioned that he would love to get the comments, in particular since this time, unlike when he wrote "Bread Alone", he will have an opportunity to make corrections for a second printing, when that happens. He asked that I email him the questions/issues and he will answer. I, of course, will put the answers on TFL.
The initial list (taken from this thread), is now in his email box.
--dolf
Glad you got through. :) Mini O
Daniel has replied. He writes: "I hope you will stay in touch and I will look at your website. I really appreciate the detail of your questions and you interest in my book." The "web site" refers to TFL for which I supplied the URL. It appears he was not familiar with it. He supplied answers to the issues I presented him with on our collective behalf and I will add replies to each respective post with this response. Since we now have a conduit to him, keep your questions coming and I will send them on.
--dolf
My Bread Aventures
It's great that Daniel Leader is listening to concerns about errors and is eager to fix them. Thanks, in case you read this posting.
Rosalie
Today I’m baking Whole Wheat Sourdough Miche, page 118, and there is another recipe with errors.
First, I noticed while preparing the levain that the text states to “add the bread flour and whole wheat flour” when the recipe grid only contains wheat flour. You can probably assume it means only wheat flour but then you have a little voice that makes you wonder.
Then the same issue as with the buckwheat batards on page 119 where the ingredients grid states to use 225 grams of the levain but the text says to use 125 grams and store and refresh the remaining levain.
I decided to use the entire levain which oddly only amounted to 219 grams. I did weigh carefully and I have an accurate scale but for some reason that’s what it ended up to be.
When I started mixing it was clear that the water was not correct either or the text was wrong because it stated that the dough would not clean the sides of the bowl. It was a big lump of rather dry dough. So I poured in more water which I did not measure but it was close to a full cup more. Now, this could have been because he really did mean 125 grams of levain but how do we know for sure? I mixed only a couple minutes longer than the time listed and ended up with a beautiful gluten window and the dough seemed a great consistency. So I'm happy about that.
I love this book and have found some incredible recipes but these errors are very problematic. It shakes the confidence in the entire book, it feels often like someone went crazy with “cut and paste” without making the necessary revisions to a specific recipe and just plain hurried if these recipes were not simply read through and checked very carefully before publishing.
The other thing that bothers me is his always recommending a 2-quart rising container and clearly most of the recipes I’ve made simply would not fit in them. So I just don’t understand what went on with people in charge of editing this book.
ZB,
I just input the formula in my spreadsheet. The initial levain is 50% hydration, so the levain starter (ingredients 100/75 flour/water) ends up being 68.75% hydration. The final dough formula has the levain starter at 40% and 225 grams, so that indicates to use it all. If you do, overall dough ends up being 73.68%, which is quite slack. Had you used only 125 grams, overall hydration would have been even higher, at 74.26%. This does mean that whether you use 225 grams, or 125 grams of levain, it will not change overall hydration of the dough all that much so this can not be the explanation for your "big lump of rather dry dough".
Couple of questions for you:
Were it not for the fact that I am already set for one of my most ambitious baking days (6 loaves today, 3 different kinds), I would try the recipe myself. May be soon.
More and more I too am coming to the conclusion that much of the book was put together by "Copy and Paste". While I understand that a lot of the text is repetitive and this is easier, it appears not enough care was taken to check for correctness. Having "test bakers" as Dan says he had, is not enough if you have them work from a manuscript alone and not a (near) final proof.
It is about time to "tickle" Dan again for his promise to make and correct the Buckwheat bread, so I'll do that and include this feedback too.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
I used my 60% hydration starter as I always do on his stiff starter recipes. So that’s pretty close to 50% and besides I dumped in a vat more water (:o) so it would compensate, I’m sure.
My scale is always accurate because I use a 50 gram weight (that came with my pocket scale to calibrate it - same brand) to check it often.
I always use the flour Leader specifies as in most recipes it is the King Arthur Select Artisan AP. In this recipe however I did use some new whole wheat flour I’m trying from Heartland Mill in Kansas but he only said stone ground WW and didn't specify brands as in some recipes. Since it is very freshly milled that could be a reason to have it soak up more water, right? At any rate I sure did slosh more water in and really could have used more.
What I really don’t know is how the total levain ended up being 6 grams short of the 225 grams when I was so careful to double check that I measured properly.
Dolf, you know, when I made his pain au levain it also was very dry and I definitely should have added more water. Did you notice that as well when you made it?
and have added water. My old habit of holding back that last bit of flour when using a written recipe, holds true.
Mini O
I just made the Pain au Levain. This is the second time I've made it, both time with the exact amounts according to the percentages. Both times dough worked out beautifully. Maybe I am just lucky, but I suspect there is something else going on.
Since there are now two separate reports of people finding their dough to dry, I am wondering if different kind of flours are at work here. Mini Oven, you're in China, right? ZB, where are you located?
I am in the San Francisco Bay area. Today my kitchen started out at 72 and is now 77F (oven has been on for a while). Relative humidity is low (<25%). For my pain au levain (Local Breads), I am using Giusto's Baker's choice (as a close approx to Type 55 flour), KA Whole Wheat. I am also making Tom Leonard's Country French, and I am using some "simulated" high extraction flour by sifting Giuoto's Coarse Whole Wheat, combined with Giusto's Ultimate Performer (pretty much high protein bread flour). Both dough's seem to have worked out very nicely. Doing their bulk ferments right now.
Let's get some insight into your locations, kitchen temperatures, relative humidity and flours (Brands and types) you use(d) for these recipes.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
Sitting here in my Austrian kitchen with lots of flour available. The heat is on, we're cold and rainy here. Kitchen humidity 38% which is rather low. I just think there is always little adjustments that have to be made with water or flour. If a recipe works perfect, fine, but flours do absorb at different rates so, important is to note it on the recipe and maybe mention the flour. I've seen enough recipes that give aproximate amounts. I just stick a little "+" note on the liquid.
The interesting thing about using weights, is that if the humidity is high, the flour will absorb more from the air and actually weigh more so one uses less. When humidity is low, the flour is dryer and it weighs less so one actually adds more flour. At first this may seem like it proposes a problem but in reality helps the formula in relationship to air pressure. Not worth breaking one's head about it, it just happens. Especially when open bins are involved.
Mini O
Note that I didn't say "super dry" but I said it was rather dry dough. What I should have said is that the WW miche was a very firm dough, which is quite different than "will not clean the sides of the bowl." There are errors in the recipe so it is hard to know what part is wrong.
In the case of the pain au levain I found no errors there, Dolf, I was only asking out of curiosity because I knew you had made it. Leader said it will form a ball of dough so I think that it was right however I just wanted to know how firm it came out for you and if I did it right or perhaps should have adjusted the hydration a little. The problem is when you find these errors it does cast doubt on other things and maybe more so for me since I’m a relatively new baker.
What I’m most concerned about is conflicting information between ingredient grids and text that we have noted. And because of those errors I think you can't always rely that the percentages are correct either.
I still love the book and I will keep baking from it. I think Leader went to an incredible amount of work to research and write this beautiful book and it still boggles the mind at how one ever gets all these important formulas correct. It took me forever just to work out properly the recipe for my aunt’s sweet dough recipe! So I definitely empathize. I just hope we get the corrections.
On October 24, 2007 - 4:52pm you mentioned "super dry" (see below). Anyway, doesn't really matter what you call it, it was a problem. For me the pain au levain was rather soft/slack and just a little sticky.
You are right about the general "unease" after discovering so many errors.
Got a response from Dan. Bread Alone is just in the busiest time of your so he hasn't gotten to it yet. He will not soon either as he is leaving for South Africa tomorrow (www.sawgbp.com)). He now says he'll have a test baker check it out.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
Dolf, maybe I should have said "super firm"...hehe. But I still would attach the "super dry" to the buckwheat batards. Actually stuper dry would not even begin to decribe it since I basically had a pile of flour on my counter that was never going to turn into bread dough. :o)
I'm glad we have a good contact there to get these errors worked out. I'm baking pain de campagne again today. OMG, that bread is TDF!
Dolf, we were posting at about the same time because I just asked you about pain au levain which was super dry for me. I tripled the recipe and really needed to add more water - don't know what stopped me except I like to try and follow a recipe as written the first time I make it. The bread was fabulous though.
I am in Omaha and the temp when I made that bread (pain au levain) was probably around 68 - 70 in my kitchen at most since it was getting very cool outside especially at night. It had been raining almost daily for a couple weeks and was during that time. I'm guessing the humidity inside was around 40% or lower. I don't understand humidity so well so I might be off a little.
Again, using type 55, KAF Select Artisan for AP and KA bread flour.
Seems like all the flours are as specified. I do not believe that the Whole Wheat would use so much more water than to go from a relatively slack dough to a "super dry" dough. Like I mentioned earlier, so far the pain au levain has worked out fine for me. I am at a loss to explain your problems. I will try to make the miche one of these days and see how that works for me.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
I received a response from Daniel, as well as one from his wife, both below. Check out the South African bakery project: quite neat: www.sawgbp.com. Unfortuntely still no resolution on this issues. I have written back to ask not to wait for publishing of official errata, but rather to send them to us as they become available.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
I hope that the "list of corrections" will be available to us who already have the book. That wasn't clear.
Rosalie
I have found more errors and just wanted to toss out whether it would be better for me to email those to you rather than to keep posting them here. Or I can just keep my own running list and give them to you all at once at some point. I am assuming you are keeping a list of what those are since you have had direct contact with Leader's company. I'm a little torn about this but frustrated and not sure how to best go about getting answers to the questions in these recipes or to just alert them to the errors that continue to pop up. I just don't want to appear as if we are disparaging them or piling on. Opinion?
You can just send them to me if you like. I do, indeed, keep track of all of them, and once we have resolution, both problem and fix should be published. I am frustrated too because while it appeared, initially, that Daniel was eager to hear about the problems and fix them, nothing is really happening. He went to Africa and passed the baton to what I assume is his wife and her approach has been to thank us for mentioning the problems, but not to provide any answers.
I am not worried about disparaging them, or piling on. Errors are errors, plain and simple. Errors can be corrected, but it takes a little work. If they don't get corrected, we, and others, are going to have to see this book in a different light. It is still a great book and provides lots of information, but it will have to be clear to anybody but advanced home bakers that, unless you are capable of "fixing" the recipes yourself, this book is not a recipe book. That would be a shame. So let's give them some more time and show that we are still active on this by getting him the additional comments.
Send them to me: dolf at starreveld dot com
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
and finally got around to reading about the search for Authentic German Ryes (p 269). So much is true and worth reading if you want to get into rye breads. I did find his mention of Cumin quite disturbing. I believe he means Caraway.
Very often a recipe will say cumin when it should read caraway because the German word for caraway is Kümmel. The German word for cumin is Kreutz, Mutter, or Roman Kümmel and so when a translation is made from Kümmel, unfortunately cumin pops up. Just pronouncing the two, one can see why there is a mix up and often thought to be the same spice. In English, caraway and cumin are two very different spices, just as Kreutzkümmel & Kümmel are different. I've run into this before.
So, Reader beware! Most references to cumin from German translations is really caraway.
Dan, if you are reading this, go chew on some cumin (or kreutz kümmel) and honestly tell me you put this into your bread!
Mini O
Mini - Are you saying that, for instance, in the German Farmhouse Rye that I've been planning to make, I should substitute caraway seeds for the cumin seeds? In that recipe he also lists coriander, fennel, and anise seeds so I didn't think much about the cumin seeds not being familiar with rye breads. Then I would assume this is the same for the Spiced Rye Rolls, page 289, that also calls for ground cumin seeds?
I'm saying, that it is not common to put cumin into traditional German & Austrian breads.
I would taste the two, compare them and then make up your own mind. Let your own tastes be your guide. Cumin is traditionally used for Mediterranean - India for baking and other foods.
Look up this site it is a google search for brotgewürtz (bread spice) in German, then hit the "translate this page" and all the caraway has been changed to cumin. I have looked at many different packages of breadspice and checked out a site where it was a topic, "What do you put into your bread spice?" and nowhere do I find the German words for cumin.
Also look up breadbaking recipes in German, no where can I find a German recipe in German using cumin or kruetzkümmel. When translated, bang!, suddenly cumin is there and the caraway has vanished. Go figure. Try under Brotrezepte.
Mini O
That is amazing info. Really, how would the novice of rye bread ever realize that with all those other spices in the bread. I honestly can say, since we use cumin so much in Mexican food, that I questioned it when I saw it on the ingredients list. There would be quite a difference between the two.
It doesn't heip that schwartzkümmel (or black caraway) is actually black cumin when translated into English. It can also be used in bread, sparingly, has a bitter strawberry note, also a Med. spice. Clover seeds (klee) are also mentioned. I don't think Daniel Leader really ment cumin or black cumin. It would be good to know if he ment caraway.
Most US rye breads use caraway seed - that is the distinctive smell and taste that almost all US ryes have and which is actually what most USians are thinking of when the say they don't like "rye". Actually they don't like caraway.
That said, I discovered by accident that whole cumin seed makes for an interesting flavor in rye bread too ;-). And I have since found several recipes that call for cumin, or a mix of caraway, cumin, anise, celery, poppy etc seeds.
Just be aware that cumin is a powerful flavor and most people consider it "hot" or "spicy". When I put it in a 2 lb loaf I use 2 tsp compared to 2 tbs of caraway.
sPh
sphealey - You just stated why my husband thinks he doesn't like rye bread. He says he can't stand the caraway seeds! (Despite the fact that he ate a loaf I purchased a year ago last new year's day for our traditional Reuben's that very much contained them...hehe. Hey, I had only been baking bread for a couple weeks by then and certainly had not tried baking my own rye.)
Anyway, I think that is also why I feel I'm relearning the flavor of rye bread because so far in the few rye recipes I've made I don't use the caraway and you do get an entirely different flavor and I'm lucky I like it both ways - caraway or not. Thanks for the info.
(PS...We both love cumin and are not at all afraid of its strong flavor.)
W. W. Norton & Co of NY is the publisher. You may be able to find a contact at their website, www.wwnorton.com to ask about the second printing and, more importantly, whether it will contain corrections.
I'm disappointed that there's no addendum or other information addressing the errors at the Bread Alone website. Other bakers have noted the errors as well, such as Ye Old Bread Blogge
As you all know, I was communicating directly with Daniel about these issues and, initially, he appeared very responsive and enthusiastic about receiving comments. There were promises to bake the supposedly errant formulas to check them and to report back. It never happened. As you can see in the email below, I received a response from Sharon in October, as Daniel went to Africa and delegated to her. Since then there has been silence. On March 8 I decided to try once more, but so far I have not been awarded any response.
At this point I have to assume that Daniel is consumed by other activities and does not really work on addressing these issues. Given that the book originally took many years to put together, perhaps that is the best we can/could expect. I am sad at this lack of interest or time. We all paid good money and this book is, in the end, just sloppy. It is worth having, but if you are not a fairly serious home baker, you may lack the skills to work with/around the many errors and ambiguities.
I sent this on March 8, in response to the email from Sharon received in October 07:
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
So will there be corrections for us already-own-the-book people or not? I often am explicit in my request, like you were, dolf, and then feel that nobody tried to read my e-mail or wants to be bothered.
Rosalie
In all communications I've had it is unclear whether there is any intent to make errata available separate from the 2nd edition of the book. The only mention is as an extra section in the 2nd edition. I doubt those of us who have the first edition would want to pay to buy the second edition just to get the errata. Based on what I've heard so far, I would not even hold my breath for a 2nd edition. Second printing, yes that might well happen and is purely a matter for the publisher (how much was produced, and how much was sold).
A second edition requires writing/editing effort by Daniel. If he can't/won't even make corrections (or find the time to go back to his source material) for those that ask directly I doubt he'll have time or will make time to go write again.
If, by any chance, a second edition comes out, and if it has all these issues fixed, it should not be too hard to extract the differences and produce an errata sheet to be published online. I'll consider doing that, if an when the time comes.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
If all goes well, I will include an 'errata' section for these persnickity (and repeated) inconsistencies.
call them what thay are errors downright mistakes.
yes i know i type like crap but to have errors like this kind in a book that is ""teaching" other people to bake. it sets up the new baker to fail and then thinking it is their fault and not the books they don't try again.
i realy dislike books such as this.
You have every right to be frustrated. Alas, I paid good money for the book but have no plans to visit upstate NY.
I do always recalculate his baker's percentages and read through the instructions a few times before making any attempt to bake from his book.
What's even worse than the errors is Mr. Leader's failure to acknowledge that there were errors or post a corrective addendum at his website.
Local Breads had been nominated for the 2008 James Beard Award. I am so glad the award went to Peter Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads, and not Leader. Mr. Reinhart had the courage and honesty to acknowledge there were typos in BBA, but tooks steps to publicly correct them.
Dolf,
First off, thanks for taking charge of this. It's incredibly helpful to a solitary bread making student!
After drooling and drooling over the photograph adjacent to p. 84, I made the Quintessential French Sourdough from Local Breads. Here's where I should pause for a quick footnote that because I did not have Learner's Levian on hand, and wanted to make it right away, instead I used a white flour sourdough starter that I keep (Reinhart's barm from Crust and Crumb). That starter, by the by, worked perfectly.
Back to the question at hand -- and this might be nitpicky, I concede. The formula, p. 124, creates darker bread than I'd have expected from looking at the p. 84 photo. This could also be my own judgement. Anyway, have you made the Quintessential French Sourdough, or has anyone else, and, if so, did it come out darker than you expected? What I'm wondering is if that formula contains mistakes as well?
It was great the way it came out, for the record, enough so that I'll make it again and again. But I have picked up a French sourdough at Bread Alone that was lighter and I suppose I expected this one to come out similarly. And since I typically make whole grain breads I was thinking of adding a lighter one.
I'd be much obliged for any insights you or anyone can provide!
Thanks,
TS
I did make this bread on September 7 a year ago (2007). You can find pictures of my results here, and here (for the interior). I actually blogged about it here on TFL as well.
I too did use another starter that I had around. Its hydration was slightly different so I compensated a little. As you can see from the pictures my outside is not heavily floured, as Leader's is, but I believe the color to otherwise be about the same He does not show a crumb picture, so I can't compare that, but you can compare yours with mine!
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
Thank you kindly. Very helpful, indeed. That is about the color mine turned out so all is good, though I suppose I might test out some slight changes just to see what I can come up with.
Thanks again!
I have never really had an issue with formulas in Local Breads, but last week I had to chuck a loaf of bread for the first time ever, courtesy of Bread Alone. Even our local squirrels wouldn't touch it. I share some of the blame though as I knew his numbers weren't right.
Mike
While this thread is great, I wish there were a more succinct list of errors specified by page number and/or recipe name. The discussion is useful, but in places where there is an obvious typographical error in the volume, weight or percentage, I'd really just like to know the 'correct' value. I have had good luck following the metric weights thus far.
When we started this thread I communicated every issue found to Daniel, the idea being that, eventually, an errata sheet would be produced. As you can read earlier in the thread, after a promising start and enthusiasm from Daniel, has and his partner have disappeared from the face of the earth as far as this is concerned. Too busy with the bakery and interviews/publicity I gather.
There really is no excuse for producing a book with recipes with so many errors in it. As bakers we always learn about the need for precision, using scales etc, and then this. What is worse is not owning up to it and supporting the people who put money down for your product.
--dolf
See my My Bread Adventures in pictures
I recently acquired a copy of "Local Breads". I'd like to thank you Dolf for your efforts in communicating many of the typos to us and to Dan. It seems that probably Dan had most of his measures correct (the metric column), but that someone without the proper spreadsheet abilities messed up several of the conversions in recipes. Some of the errors are very obvious, so it's a shame that publishers/author(s) didn't take the time to review the text before it was sent to the press. If it's true that Dan and co-workers spent the better part of thirteen years collecting and working out the recipes, I feel really bad for them that it ended up as such a rush job in the end.
I failed at my recent attempt to get a liquid levain going, so this time I'll try Leader's approach. There's the obvious discrepancy in the measurements for day 1: Well, it's anyone's guess, but since the final levain should be at roughly 130% hydration, I think I'll have a go with 160% hydration for this first day. That means 80g water for 25g each of rye and AP. It's probably not crucial for the recipe, but with this tweak, the levain will have a 140% hydration after day 3 feeding, which is not very far from the 130% that it will approach in the long run.
There's also the buckwheat dilemma: The baker's % in the levain is way off. To complicate matters, the metric column calls for a sizeable chunk of liquid levain (300 gr., which is ALL but 60 gr. of the total refreshed liquid levain following Leader's directions). In the text below, it reads "Pour 1/4 cup of your liquid levain..." You can't fit 300 gr. into 1/4 cup, so there are more typos floating around here. I've found two different blogs about the buckwheat bread from Leader: One following the volume/metric recipe (300 gr. levain) and a customized version. Both seem to turn out well, but the first one, that follows volume/metric, looks quite similar in consistency as Leader describes the levain to be ("a smooth, pasty dough").
I've never used buckwheat myself, but it's obviously not your standard fare flour. I'll have a go at this if I get the Leader levain up and running. And yes, I think it would be worthwhile to collect errors and typos in a document that we could provide to TFL'ers (since the publisher seems reluctant to do anything).
Dolf,
I like to ask how to do spreadsheets for the dough.I do have lot's of books for excel but I do not know how to make spreadsheets.Please, help
Saintdennis
I was happy to find this thread, because I was just getting ready to bake this bread and realized the recipe did not make sense.
In particular, the water called for is 60%, which he converts to 300 grams (OK), 10.6 ozs (still OK), and 22 cups (doubly wrong). I say doubly wrong because there is 1) an obvious typo, presumably 2 cups and 2) 2 cups is 16 oz. He seems to have used the flour weight to volume conversion, rather than the water weight to volume conversion, to get this.
To compound the confusion, in the written directions, the water is split into 175 grams for soaking the seeds, and the "remaining" 350 grams (300-175=350?)
So, I'm not quite sure what to do here.
Have a look here: Dreikornbrot. Pamela is a Leader fan and she's baked several of his loaves with great success. I think you'll find what you're looking for in that post.
Does anyone know if he has posted anywhere the corrections to all the formula issues in the Local Breads book? I got the book last year as a birthday gift and only tried one bread in it so far beings I got 6 books for my birthday. I really wanted Mr. Leader's book beings it deals with sourdoughs which happens to be our favorite bread medium.
Blessings,
Lydia
I just had the exact same problem with the Old World Baguette. Thankfully I was directed to this thread. I had wondered about mixing time and speed. Leader says to mix at 4 on the KA mixer for 8-9 minutes. I wanted to go for at least 20 but had no clue if that was right or not. This book is apparently rife with erors and some may be Leader, some may be the publisher, but all of them affect us. Why in the world would Leader have asked for 8-9 minutes of mixing with such a dough? I have to believe there were too many hands working this book and not enough tresting ot proofreading. In either case it is unconscionable for a book to go to press in such poor shape.
I have to start again as the first attempt has been tossed out. Alas!
Thanks for tis input. I had suspected more mixing time but with such a short time in the recipe who would have guessed 20 minutes? Or more.
Kim
I very much agree with your strategy BobR, in your decision to use metric weighing in the Leader book.
I am not trying to open up any discussion here about metric/imperial/volumetric measuring.
This comment is meant to look at how Mr. Leader probably put these formulae together in the first place. I do not have first hand knowledge of this, but I would expect that he used Bakers' Percentages, at the very least to balance the formulae. If that is the case, then using these in conjunction with the metric would allow him to double check that everything balances properly. That is how I construct recipes. Remember, in the formula, flour equals 100, water may equal 75, salt 2, and yeast 2 as a working example. If you translate that to metric weight than you have the same numbers in grams. You can do the same calculations for imperial, but it is very awkward, as imperial works with numbers like 12, 14 and 16, whereas metric is decimal, so it runs along the same lines as %. Volume doesn't work in the same way at all. I work in this way with Hamelman's book as well as Leader's. I use his metric column and the Bakers' % to put down the recipe and formula I want to make using a factor to either divide down, or multiply up.
I know the focus of many comments about recipes and formulae printed in all the different books over the years comes from frustration about following the recipes as stated and finding they don't work out. The more experienced bakers come to realise that a bread formula can be quite complex, and there are numerous factors which can impact on how the finished bread turns out when made in different parts of the world, for numerous good reasons too.
This is just my best suggestion to help those who have struggled using books such as Leader's in the past. I have just used it as a basis for a bread course I want to run soon, where students will make 3 Italian Regional breads..and have based my formula for both the Genzano and Altamura breads on the recipes published by Leader. I have changed them both quite a bit, but did so using his bakers' % as the starting point. There are some fabulous breads in this book; a romp around Europe visiting some of the finest bakeries around, meeting up with their owners and coming away with recipe ideas and samples of the bread. It is such a good read, regardless of any issues with recipe quantities and errors.
Best wishes
Andy
Best wishes
Andy
This book has always been the one I was most jnterested, having seen loads of beautiful breads baked by many of the forum members based on the book, but the issue of erratas's been putting off me from buying it. But a few days ago when I went to London to see my friends, I popped into s large bookshop to kill a time because I was too early. There I found a lone copy of this very book, the first time I'd seen the real, physical copy..... Oh my god, it's a full of sort of breads that I really, really love to eat...and bake myself, if I'm capable of! Possibly much more so than any other book I've seen or own. Gosh, I'm buying this! (... from a cheaper online shop :p)h
Just wanted to say big THANK YOU to Dolf (if you're still seeing this) and all the people who have contributed to this thread. I'm sure this will be my life-saver when using the book. Thank you!!
I still log in every now and then. You're welcome, but since the original thread started, many others have contributed, possible more than I have. So thank your fellow TFLers.
I just baked the Whole Wheat Genzano Country Bread (p.205) and had some problems with incredibly fast rising times. The recipe calls for 1.5 tsp of instant yeast, or 8 grams. 1.5 tsp of yeast is about 5 grams. I checked my other cookbooks and they all have 1.5 tsp as 5 grams for various recipes. I went with the listed metric weight of 8 grams, not the 1.5 tsp, and the dough took off. It more than doubled in a half hour for the first rise, and again in a half hour for the second. I started preheating the oven in the middle of the second rise knowing that proofing would be fast as well. I only let the loaves proof for maybe 40 minutes. My kitchen was around 72 degrees. I know there was a discussion about this above and Leader responded that the metric weight is the accurate one, but I'm feeling like next time I'll try 5 grams instead.
As you read through the whole thread you will find that general consensus is that when in doubt, you should use the metric numbers in the formulas. Dan Leader himself commented (also mentioned above), that he only provided metric and volume conversions were done for him, at the insistence of the publisher. While that does not absolve him and/or the publisher from the many conversion errors, it does tells us where to start looking for the truth.
Having said that, if you do not have a scale so you can tackle the metric weights instead of volumes, you should get a scale asap. While you wait for that, you should use a different source of conversion than the book, as the person doing them clearly had incorrect data and/or was sloppy. One such source is the dough calculation spreadsheet I posted about elsewhere on TFL.
That spreadsheet finds hat 8 grams of yeast if 2.5 teaspoons. This is also confirmed in a post earlier in this thread. It is almost always true that longer rise gives better taste and any given formula may cause the rise to be faster than you want in your circumstances. No big deal. Do exactly what you are planning, and reduce the amount of yeast. Also be aware that there is a difference between the two kinds of instant yeast (instant dry, and active dry), so same volume of both will not have the same effect.
Good luck!
Thanks, that's helpful. I do have a scale which is accurate the 1/10th of a gram, but after reading about all the formula problems folks have had with Local Breads I got nervous. I probably should've let the dough ferment for the full 1.5 hours both times, in which case it would have at least quadrupled instead of doubled. The flavor was pretty bland since it clearly didn't ferment long enough, but shaping it wasn't hard at all.
I realize that this is an old thread but since the link is no longer working you might be interested in one that is:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101019043442/http://breadalone.com/PDF/local-breads-corrections.pdf
Regards,