Eye opening techniques
I know when I first started baking I nodded dutifully when I was told to knead until the dough will pass the window pain test. If you can't stretch a piece until it is translucent and you can see light through it, knead some more. This advice is found through out the industry help and how to books and is considered to be a core understanding by many. Far be it for me who is a lowly novice in terms of time in the flour bin to question the conventional wisdom, however. There are a few misconceptions that have become accepted as gospel that I believe hinder the new baker and for that matter any baker who wants to truly understand what their potential is in the kitchen. The techniques I address here are not my ideas or content. These things were presented to me by others here on the forum in pieces over the last few years and together represent the basis of my capability today.
The first bit of advice I have is to stop what ever you are doing and watch this video. If you're like me it will take a few times to get the hang of what the poster is doing. This is Richard Bertinet doing a demo for Gourmet magazine. He is making a sweet dough but it doesn't matter. The technique is key. When I learned this move and method of handling dough, my results instantly went from unpredictable to reliable. 10 or maybe 15 seconds with your hands in the dough and that's it, you're done. No more kneading is required. You might do a couple folds every 20-30 minutes during the primary ferment. This will work with sourdough or yeasted recipes and white or whole wheat with the caveat that WW will need a fold or two during the ferment. Once I learned to do the French Fold, I have rarely used my mixer. When you understand how the dough is supposed to feel with your own fingers it is much easier to produce a dough that will perform to your expectations.
Further EDIT: A regular contributor to this forum has produced some really terrific video training aids that can be seen HERE. Mark Sinclair is the owner of The Back Home Bakery in Kalispell Montana. He is remarkably clear in the message he sends about how to handle several dough types and shaping.
Mark demonstrates how easily you can mix, stretch and fold and shape dough. His style is easy to follow and well done. I highly recommend you take a look at these instructional videos. He just posted a new video on shaping a high hydration baguette that is excellent. Many of his recipes are search-able here or if you email him he will probably send them to you. His bakery products are beautiful and the photography is inspirational.
Mark now has 2 DVD's for sale that take you from end to end with 3 different breads and another on technique. There are lots of places to get information on how bake good breads. Marks Video's are reasonable and very helpful to the new baker.
There is another video that should be included is the Julia Child/Daniel Forester baguette demonstration. This is a 2 part video that shows how to put together french bread dough by hand and uses the frisage method. Frisage is something that once seen, always understood. You can read about it repeatedly but it won't make sense until you see it in action. See it http://www.pbs.org/juliachild/free/baguette.html here.
Added by Edit: A great video is now available that I think is the essence of dough handling and shows how easy it is to mix dough without a mixer. If you can chew gum you can make great bread using Richard Bertinet's video HERE.
Secondly, Da Crumb Bum posted a concept that goes against all the common wisdom concerning pre heating your oven and using a stone for a thermal battery. Who hasn't thought that to get good rustic bread one must bake on a pizza stone or a tile surface? There are some instances where a stone and preheat is required like pizza and bread sticks but for the greatest majority of your baking, no stone or preheat is required. A link to the original post is http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/1843/no-knead-preheat#comment-12597 . Most are skeptical this will work at first but trust me on this, you won't believe it until you see it with your own eyes. It is expensive to maintain 450F in a steel box both in terms of wasting money and by wasting the energy and resources of our planet. The minimal effect that preheating has on the crust is absolutely not worth the additional energy.
I share these thoughts and techniques as a way of thanking the many posters who have helped me to become at least a competent home artisan baker. The host of The Fresh Loaf (floydm) is top on the list with his lessons and frequent examples of solid baking. Hundreds of community members, posters, are here to answer your question or help with an issue. This is a great site because of the members. Don't be afraid to jump in, we are just like family.
ADDED EDIT:
It's been a while since I made this post and I wanted to come back and add a few things now that I have some experience under my belt.
1.) I still almost never use the mixer. A brief hand mix to break up the dry clumps of flour followed by a 30-60 minute rest and stretch and fold or French folding as per the top video will develop the gluten just fine. Stretch and fold every 30-60 minutes for the duration of the bulk ferments. Time will be your friend here. Be patient. If you use a very small amount of starter for inoculation or yeast, you slow down the bulk ferment. If you increase the hydration slightly, you will find you can fold every 40-60 minutes for about 4 hours. The dough will be perfectly satin smooth and will easily windowpane.
2.) Instead of starting from a cold oven, I now am starting the oven when the dough looks ready and the proof is about done. The dough is proofing on parchment, covered with a floured towel or a moist tea towel. When it looks like the proof is done, turn on the oven. My electric will go to 450 in 7 minutes. Slide the dough in, steam for a great crust. I rotate after 20 minutes.
3.) I think many people over ferment and over proof. Try fermenting for 60 minutes at 78F, shape and proofing for 45-60 minutes. Remember, the warmer it is where your dough ferments, the faster the dough will rise. Temperature matters.
4.) Make your slashes deeper than a 1/4 inch. You might be better to go back and retrace your initial slashes to make them just a little deeper. Be modest in the pattern. Remember what the purpose is of slashing.
5.) Not so much a technique but a suggestion. Adopt a basic formula that you can make in your sleep. Nothing fancy, a basic yeast or sourdough bread your family likes and work from that. You will be surprised at how many different types of bread you can make using your basic master formula by adding one or two ingredients or changing the handling slightly.
Have fun and learn at your own pace. The collective knowledge at The Fresh Loaf is being plugged into your own private baking school.
Eric
"It's not you he wags his tail for, but, your bread".
After reading your post, and watching the short video from sourdough-guy (about 5 times) I have a few questions.
Was this dough, or the dough that you make, initially mixed with a mixer or by hand?
Was a pre-ferment used?
I mix all my breads by hand, in a s/s bowl, with a plastic (for a lack of better words) stick. Until all the parts seem fairly incorperated. At this time however, they in no way look as smooth as the dough shown in the video. Mine is much more lumpy. The only time I ever have a dough this wet in looks is if I'm doing a poolish bread, most of my breads not requiring a pre-ferment are much dryer to start. My breads only start to transform into a single dough mass after about 8 minutes of kneading by hand. And I knead fairly roughly. Kneading and folding, folding and kneading, oh and did I mention kneading. ;)
I never (not that I have tons of experience), but never have achieved the window pain thing by hand mixing and kneading. If memory serves me right (and it often doesn't) I read in one of my books that alot of pro bakers stop short of fully developing the dough on purpose. I figured if its good for them, it will probably work for me. And so far it has. I still knead about 10 minutes or so. Sometimes as much as 15, sometimes as little as 6 depending on the dough I am working with. I dont know if this is because everything is by hand, or because its me.
I do believe that alot of extra hype is placed on rituals. And the way things "used to be done". I am all for reading about folks "building a better mousetrap". Unfortunately I feel all too often folks place unrealistic requirements on things, be it baking, cooking, or beverage to try to make themselves more superior sounding. If it doesnt really change or enhance the outcome, is it really required?
Anyways, great post Eric.
TT
Thank you, ehanner for consolodating for us a lot of worthwhile information in one place!
I do have a question, however. At the beginning of your comment, you mention the window pane test. So do you or others think this is accurate or a myth? I always worry that I am trying to pass that test at the expense of flavor: there is a theory that over-kneading diminishes the flavor of bread.
Does the dough go through an autolyse first? Is the fold done only once? Does the dough rest again for any length of time before shaping?
Forgive me if I missed these details. I've watched the video too, but it's not clear to me when exactly this step is to be done. Thanks!
Sue
Sue, first mix then wait a few minutes, then frisage, then wait 45 minutes for the dough to soak and autolyse and soften up. Now do the French Fold for 4-6 repetitions or until it looks like the video. Then, Bulk ferment for as long as it takes to double. Then divide, shape, form and proof.
Eric
Forgive me, but I'm confused about the term you use, "frisage." It is my understanding that frisage (fraisage) is the mixing of the dough by smearing it on your mixing surface using the heel of your palm. You're saying there are two different mixing techniques basically, right? I think I may try this with my next loaf, if I understand it propery.
(Edited to say: NEVERMIND- someone else explains that further down!. Thanks!) :-D
Well, I just went back to the video and read the Written Instructions link. Hmmm, nothing like RTFM, eh? Never mind.
Sue
Appreciate your ability to see through the clutter and make it work.
I made a little ~2-cup loaf last Saturday evening, baked it COLD out of the fridge because I awoke very late, and, lo and behold, it may be the best loaf I ever baked. We just cut into the very middle of it today, and it just keeps getting better and better. I used SD-G's uber-recipe, and Eric's beautiful bread kept pushing me: Come-on, Susan, you can do it!
I have a SD starter sitting here on the counter, hoping I will get it going enough to leave it here in the fridge for my next visit.
Susan
First of all, I can't speak for Sourdough-guy but I would bet he doesn't use a mixer ever for a single batch. Why would you? It takes longer and makes a mess. I know you thought it was messier to use your hands. So did I when I first started. Get a big bowl (4L) if you don't want to make a mess on the counter. Buy a dough whisk from King Arthur or some other mail order. They look weird but I can whip together a double batch of 1800 grams weight in about 3 minutes with no mess.
Next there is another video you should watch. http://www.pbs.org/juliachild/free/baguette.html
It is a Julia Childs segment where Danielle Forester demonstrates how to make Batards the French way. The way she puts the dough together is an eye opener. Watch closely how she does the "Frisage" (SP) and breaks up the flour clumps into a smooth mass. She is using live yeast but it works with all dough and I do it every single time. My dough is always nice and silky like the video. Later they do the kneading which is hilarious on it's face. Danielle claims she slaps the dough 850 times before it is right. Nonsense is giving them a break. Just learn to do a frishage and see how easy it is to put together a batch on the counter. You won't be the same after. In fact I know a baker in Colorado who bakes 200 loaves a day pretty much by him self and last I knew he didn't even have a mixer. It's just flour, you can learn how it should feel, easily.
So, without complicating things.
Mountaindog and jmonkey have shown us how important it is to ford during primary ferment. I would defer to them and bwrath about folding when using whole wheat. I will say this, folding works way way better than burning out your mixer trying to auto mix WW doughs.
I didn't mean for this to be so long but it seemed like I left a few holes in my descriptions.
Try it out and let me know if you have questions. Also, those of you who actually taught me how to do this stuff, don't be bashful, jump in.
Eric
Eric, thanks for the posting.I tried your method to make my first no-knead baguettes and it worked so well, until I baked the baguettes. They came out gorgeous brown-crusted, but the slashes were gone, like my failed baguettes from BBA pain l'ancienne recipe. So far I have made copious amount of cold-oven no-knead sourdough boules etc with great results and the slashes were pronounced and crumbs were crackly and crunchy.
I wondered if I had preheated the oven the result would have come out differently? Had you compared the cold oven and preheated oven results? Thanks.
-E-
erina, glad your baguettes turned out so well. When I see my oven spring has been so powerful to make the slashes almost disappear, I think two things must be happening. First, maybe I didn't proof quite long enough and second maybe the slashes were a little shallow. Try an experiment on your next similar loaf and make half of your slashes twice as deep. You can go back and re-cut if you are careful.
I'm happier when I have a big oven spring even if the slash marks are gone. Then you know the bread will be airy and full of holes.
Please let us know what you find with your experiments.
Eric
Eric, thanks for your info. The baguettes actually taste great; the crust is golden; and the crumb was like it was meant to be. Now I wondered why people actually have to knead (slap and quarter turn) for 15 minutes. Currently I am experimenting with making a dough batch with the old method. I will let you know the difference once they are out of the oven. I also still wondered about the cold vs hot ove method. I will experiment and get back to you with the results. Thanks!
Oh, I wish I had seen your comment earlier! I was confused about the mixing and the subsequent fraisage. Thanks for writing that out.
i definitley want to try that out, Ive never heard of starting in a cold oven before.
As far as the "french fold" technique is concerned I completely agree with you, it awesome, I first learned that on a King Arthur video I bought a while ago and it has really improved the strength of my super-hydrated doughs on top of making life a lot easier. another thing have found that helps a ton is to stir the dough. I combine everthing together in the bowl leaving out half of the flour. Basically I make a batter and then I beat the heck out of it for a minute or so, before adding in the rest of the flour and performing the fold/kneading.
in my kitchen because although I have been folding, I didn't get the stretching part. I love the video and seeing the slack dough get tension and substance in a matter of seconds. It is mesmerizing! Thanks very much for posting this useful collection of techniques.
I feel a little cheap here because none of this is original work from myself. I would love to say I had something to do with the development of the French Fold but it is all Sourdough-guy. It is magical isn't it.
Eric
I thought I recognized SD guy's communication style. Ebanner, thanks for gathering these lessons into one post.
Hey Eric
Great post. You always hear about kneading until a window pane can be made. I tried for the better part of a year and still could not get the perfect window pane. I then went to folding which by the way is wayyyyyyy underemphasized in every bread book I have ever read and I have read my share. This is in my humble opinion the greatest technique I have ever learned and I wish I had known about it sooner. The results on an even super wet dough are for lack of a better word magic. It can turn any dough into a no knead. Why is this technique not more mainstream I cannot understand. Thanks for a great informational post.
Da Crumb Bum
Yes and thank you for converting me on preheating. This whole thing just came to me while looking at the forum posts the other night. Everyone is struggling with similar issues and the forum board moves so quickly that everything is gone unless you know to search for it. I just thought I would take a stab at giving peeps the chance to see things together as a mural so to speak. There are many moving values in play here and the more predictable we can make it the better for Artisan Bread movement.
Sourdough-guy is tuned up and creating great content for some of us knot heads that need help so this looked like the perfect time to get it out.
After all if No Knead Bread can catch the worlds attention for crying out loud you know there are budding Artisan bakers who will become bored with the baked glop in a bucket routine eventually.
Eric
I feel ashamed, in NO way did I mean for you to think I was speaking of you when bringing up the "people making themselves important" part. I was meaning the people who write and publish these books.
Not to be so obvious as to my kissing of your butt, but I have the UTMOST respect for you and your baking skills. Heck, I love learning new tricks. I was trying to relay that I feel alot of books Ive read try putting too much emphasis on rediculous tasks. When it could be done much easier (like you have shown).
I am not always the best with words, and for that I apologize. But no slight was intended toward you or anyone here on this thread.
TT
TT,
I've felt much the same as you after coming to this site. So many people have contributed great ideas that can drastically simplify the process or that make a big difference in the outcome. It is strange that many of the really key techniques are hidden away in hard-to-find places, when we have all those great books. The books were incredibly helpful as I got started, but what I've picked up from various people on this site has made a huge difference. No question, I've gone almost mixerless and found myself getting good gluten development and nice rises with sinfully little effort after learning the ideas contributed here.
Eric, thanks for summarizing some of the key techniques. It helps to see more of it in one place.
SD-guy, your posts have been a big help to me, especially regarding sourdough. Many thanks to JMonkey, SourdoLady, Mountaindog, Ehanner, Zolablue, browndog5, Bart, and many others - and of course, floydm, for all the great ideas.
You inhabitants of thefreshloaf.com are THE BEST.
Bill
Eric, very nice synopsis of some of the great things this site has brought forward. I agree with you, I've never bothered about the windowpane test either, because I knew I'd be fermenting my doughs longer. Even though I still use a mixer a lot for big batches, I don't mix for very long at all, and you are right, one can easily do without one as long as you are willing to let time do the work, it's all a balancing act between amount of starter, temp, and time, as SD Guy has stated many times. Folding was a big revelation to me as well. To be fair to bread book authors, though, I think most come from the background of a professional kitchen, where consistent results are needed on a larger scale, often with less ability to play with time and temp variables. I admit I have been very skeptical of the no-preheat method, as I like those dark crispy crusts, but with warmer weather almost here I will certainly give it a try.
Thanks Mountaindog, well put. It does seem to me that there are few absolutes in baking when there should be. The day I learned the French Fold maneuver it suddenly dawned on me that knowing how to develop gluten strings and knowing how it felt when it happened was a breakthrough. This was a turning point for me. It took me a while to trust it and not continue to knead just for old time sake.
With WW breads I think I get better results from folding during the bulk ferment a few times and letting the ferment go on for 24 hours at high hydration. I still do the FF when I have some development after the bulk ferment.
I hope the gist of the compilation stays visible for a while so people will not forget it as it slips down the page, tomorrow.
Eric
Hey Eric and Co.
I just finished watching the Julia Childs video. I plan on trying the going mixerless method this weekend. I was wondering if you use her technique for forming your batards? My first impression watching Daniel form her loaves was dang she puts the smack down on that dough. Not only does she punch down after primary she rolls and seals and rolls some more, you get the idea. It did look like she had a fairly decent crumb after all that handling. I try to be so careful to degas as little as possible maybe a little too careful? I am forming the theory that if your dough is developed fully you can "lean on it" and the large bubbles will break but the dough will still be full of smaller gas pockets that will enlarge during final proofing. There was no doubt that she gets allot of surface tension on her loaves. This is something I have trouble with and need to figure out.
Isn't it cool that to make great bread you don't need any fancy tools or gadgets or even kneading, just flour, water, yeast, salt, good technique (The Fold), and most important patience to take the time to let the dough do its thing. I wish all my hobbys were this simple and inexpensive.
Da Crumb Bum
Hi Crumb Bum, What I come away with from that video is that the dough will come together very well by manual means. Clearly the exercise she gets slapping 850 times is unnecessary. She does get good strength but I think SD-Guy has shown that it isn't necessary to beat the tar out of the dough to get holes. I mean look at the No Knead craze. Granted that's not a Batard shape or any kind of free formed shape but the crust and crumb are good.
I hope Floyd will give some thought to making some of these aids and concepts part of his training sessions. The board moves so fast that in a week these thoughts will only be known by us.
Eric
Thank you for compiling all of this great information in one thread. I, too, have neveer gotten the window pane and have given up on it completely. I've never attempted the French Fold technique exhibited by sourdoughguy but I have saved this thread and hope to do some experimenting next time I bake bread.
I found the Julia Child video to be intimidating. There were so many steps, and they had to be done just so. Maybe it's because the techniques were not familiar to me, but that video would not inspire me to start baking, that's for sure. So anyone who can provide a simplification of it would be appreciated very much, thank you.
Rosalie
Rosale, I know what you mean about the Danielle Forestier videos. It is an exacting kind of technique, in that very French way (keeping in mind that a lot of that stuff is actually a matter of law over there. They take their bread mighty seriously.)
I have watched it several times and found it useful to basically look at it as a a collection of separate steps, then ignore the ones I can't or won't use (850 slams, ha!). I don't use fresh yeast, for instance, so her excellent demonstration of how to rub it into the flour is interesting but irrelevant for me.
Her method of shaping the loaves, on the other hand, has helped me hugely. I also found it useful just to observe the texture of her dough, which is stiffer than what I had been making, but still yielded wonderful hole-y crumb. Plus, I have taken to heart her reminder that "there is no (exact) formula for water" in the dough because the flour is a little different every time.
So, I'd say take it for what it's worth to you, not as immutable gospel.
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
When I first watched that video I saw a few things that I had heard or read about but didn't understand. One was the Fresage technique. The idea of rubbing the lumps out of the dough with the heel of your hand and developing a smooth dough was a life changing moment for me. It was at that moment that I realized how easy it is to mix dough by hand. In fact I rarely use the mixer anymore since I discovered how much easier and faster it is to use a dough whisk and my hands. Like Cooky said above, There are a few things you need to get from these training videos. Not everything applies to what you are trying to learn but find something interesting and remember it.
Eric
Frissage provided a turning point in my baking life too, Eric. Years ago, I read a description of it in a Julia Child cookbook chapter on pie crusts. That was the first time in my life I was ever able to make a crust come out with that dreamy, flaky-tender texture. I don't bake pies often anymore, but when I do, I fall back on that lesson I learned from Julia and it still works miraculously.
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
Hey all
Hope everyone is having a great 4th. I would like to also thank Eric for this post. I found that I was being very impersonal with my dough. I would add it all to the KA mix, auto, fold, shape, bake. Thanks to this post I have gotten back in touch with all my doughs. I mix by hand, Phriysagge (I think this is the write speeling?) and last but no least "The Fold". This process takes very little time but allows you to really feel the consistancy and development of the dough. I have always suscribed to the theory "if it seems to good to be true, it is". This method makes mincemeat of this addage. I thought I might get a dough whisk but I am having way to much fun doing the hand mix thing. I also think, and I am sure you can back me up on this, bread tastes better when completely made by hand? Thanks again.
Da Crumb Bum
PS. I am still not ready to get rid of my digital scale yet. Maybe someday ( baby steps)
Hi Crumb Bum,
No way will I ever let go of the scale. Totally with you there. That's the last to go. I like my probe thermometer too. I do agree that it just didn't dawn on me how much dough handling matters until I started to do it by hand - that and watching Zolablue's results for the same darn thing (e.g. the old ciabatta challenge thread) come out so much better than my attempts with the same flours, same proportions and whatnot. It's not that you can't do it with a mixer, but you learn so much doing it by hand that I realize I was missing with the mixer. What I didn't expect is that the cleaning is so much easier doing it by hand, and with the folding techniques, there really so little physical effort and actual time involved, that I actually find it much easier without the mixer. I know that's probably hard for some to believe, because I would've found it hard to believe myself less than a year ago, but honestly the mixer has become something I think of as being a hassle to pull out and a bigger hassle to clean afterward.
Bill
Since it is the 4th of July and at least the three of us seem to be hopelessly unable to have a BBQ. Let's get in the spirit and declare our independence from mechanical mixers!!:>) HoooAaa
Eric
Eric, are [were] you Army?
SD Baker
SD baker, If my memory serves me you are a Navy man. My Dad was Navy during the big war. Hope you are enjoying your Independence Day.
Eric
Eric, yes, thanks for the good wishes and the same to you and yours.
SD Baker
Hey all
The only way "they", whoever "they" is will ever get my scale is to pry it out of my cold, floured hands. I actually do hope at some point in my life I don't need even a scale. My Gma used to make all her biscuts and pie doughs on the counter no weighing just a pinch here and a pinch there. There was also a post I think it's still in the faves section where this dude makes bread dough in a bowl. No scale etc. he then bakes it in a hole lined with rocks. How cool is that. As for folding, I still cannot believe that this is not stressed more in all the books. I cannot tell you how much time I spent kneading in the past. Now don't get me wrong, this is not time wasted by any means, it is just unnessisary. Handling the dough through the frissage and folding still lets you feel the dough and it's progression. It's as close to magic as anything I have ever seen. As for the mixer, I won't put it out with the trash just yet but I find it's not getting a whole lot of use lately.
Da Crumb Bum
It's all in the hands, baby.
Having taken "eye opening techniques" to heart, I am reaping immediate improvements as I apply what I am learning.
Here's a photo of what my bread used to look like... a typical miserable failure (tastes OK but too dense).
Now take a look at some recent efforts...
Photo series A shows Jeffrey Hamelman's recipe for Baguettes with Poolish. I modified the recipe slightly, scaled it down to 29 ounces of dough and shaped as batards, since I prefer this shape. (You can download Hamelman's recipe from media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/72/04711685/0471168572.pdf)
Photo A1: the dough is light and puffy. It holds its shape when transferred from the board to the baking sheet.
Photo A2: Slashed batards in oven 15 minutes into baking cycle. Oven spring was about 1 inch .
Photos A3 and A4 show the finished loaves.
Photo series B is another modification of Hamelman's recipe, scaled down to 34 oz dough and substituting about 10% whole grain flour (in this case, triticale) for some of the bread flour.
Photo B1: The risen dough takes slashing well. Previously I got drag marks when when slashing and the dough would deflate.
Photo B2: A finished loaf. Unfortunately it was scarfed down before I could take a pic of the interior.
Many thanks to ehanner and all the other wonderful posters here for all their tips.
Good for you subfuscana, I'll bet that feels great. It looks like you mastered the dough handling and slashing seems to be in hand as well. I'm so glad you discovered these techniques. Nice step by step post too, great job.
Eric
into baking cycle. I've never seen any mention of anyone using that technique. They look great. I would guess that being cloched would be key in that technique, otherwise the loaf would be too crusty after 15 minutes?
I feel the same way about all I've learned in the last number of months. You have a lot to be proud of, your breads are beautiful and look delicious. I too never heard of slashing the loaves after they have baked 15 min. Tell us how that worked. weavershouse
I believe what this baker was saying is that the image is of the dough 15 minutes after baking/slashing. I didn't get that he was slashing after the loaf went in.
I did read somewhere that you can slash after the first few minutes and get a nice clean cut that looks nice.
Eric
Yup, I think you're right. The English language,so many ways to interpret, semantics..Thanks But then again, maybe I'll give it a try, what have I got to lose..some flour, water, yeast and salt..
when I said
Photo A1 showed the loaves ready to be slashed before being placed in the oven and they were slashed before baking, not 15 minutes into the baking cycle. Good catch, everybody.
I went back and read your post again and see my error. Sorry :D weavershouse
I, too, am joining the ranks of enlightened hand-kneaders.
After watching that eye-opening video several times to make sure I understood the stretch and fold technique, I made some 66% hydration cold-ferment baguettes, loosely modeled on Peter Reinhart's 'pain a l'ancienne,' for the 4th of July. In addition, I used a couple of variations I picked up from the Danielle Forestier videos: specifically, I allowed the dough to autolyse for about 20 minutes before kneading, which gave the gluten a very solid head start; and second, I didn't add the salt (2%) until I kneaded, so as not to inhibit the yeast (1% active dry, pre-hydrated) early on.
Even though I've been aware of that rapid gluten development when I french-fold ciabatta, I was amazed at how quickly the gluten developed in this dough. (I was using 90% Costco/ConAgra bread flour, 10% medium whole wheat and ice water.) The gluten really fought back: I don't think I was able to get past 5 stretch-and-folds, and so folded and bashed the dough a la Forestier/Childs another half dozen times to make sure the salt was distributed evenly. Then I let it ferment for about 24 hours in the fridge.
Next day, the dough took about 2 hours at room temperature to fully awaken and double in bulk. At that point, the gluten had relaxed considerably and the dough was incredibly silky and well-developed -- felt much more like a 2/3 hydrated dough should. I scaled it into 10-oz boules and let it rest for another 20 minutes before shaping the baguettes. After an hour in the couche, I baked them on stones in an electric oven preheated to 550, which I turned down to 450 after putting in the loaves and tossing in a couple of glasses of water (again, a la Forestier) in to create steam. Turned them after 12 minutes, and they came out 8 minutes after that.
These were the best baguettes I've ever baked. The crumb was very open, with really well developed gluten. Our friends raved about the bread, which we served cut into rounds with a variety of dips and spreads. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures, but promise to do so next time around.
Suffice it to say, this experience has converted me (except maybe for rye).
If you use first clear flour and rye together, you will find another pleasant surprise when handling the dough. It mixes up much like a normal white flour dough if you use say 40/60 rye/clear and use the rye in a SD preferment for about 4 hours. Try about 100 grams of starter to 270 grams rye and water. Great rye bread! If you need a full recipe let me know.
One other thing. I have stopped waiting to add salt because the french fold is so effective you don't have the opportunity to work it in. I add salt to the flour and mix it up before adding it to the dough mix and haven't seen any adverse effects. Danielle was using fresh yeast which is weaker and is planning on treating her dough to a major smack-down later:>)
Eric
I've just recently learned about the existance of this website so excuse me for commenting so late.
These videos are incredible! I'm just about to go down to knead sandwich bread dough that I mixed about 20 minutes ago and am reeling with this new information. Frisage will be particularly useful for some of the really slack dough breads I make.
I've read about the method of stretching on the counter that the sourdough guy was doing but couldn't quite picture it.
Many thanks for posting about these videos.
(I have never understood why people bothered with the window pane test.)
Hi ejm, glad you are finding the site helpful, I know I do. Here is the video to the kneading method known here as the French Fold.
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/jimpics/index.html
Once you get your dough mixed together you can do the heel of your hand (frishage) to make certain all the clumps are incorporated. Then cover the dough and let it rest for 1 hour and do the french fold. I use it in a wide range of dough hydration. Usually it just takes a few seconds to develop the gluten with AP flour.
Some people like to use a stand mixer for everything but I hardly ever mix with a mixer. The manual method allows you the chance to feel the dough as it develops. It is quicker to clean up and you will feel like a baker! Good luck.
Eric
I know what you mean about the quick cleanup when doing everything by hand, Eric I have a food processor but I hardly ever use it because it's such a drag to clean. I don't even own a stand mixer and don't really have an urge to get one. There is something very nice about using wooden spoons and hands.
I used the frisage method (demonstrated on the PBS video) this morning and will undoubtedly be using it often. And I also made a valiant attempt at the French fold - wonderful!
I wish I could say that the bread that I'm about to bake is going to turn out wonderfully though. I'm so mad - I was out at the market longer than I expected and it overrose... >:-(
-Elizabeth
Elizabeth,
You can punch it down and reshape if your timing gets fouled up. I have to remind myself to do that instead of trying to forge ahead and bake anyway. One way you will have great bread and the other a dud. Seems obvious still it's hard to admit the goof.
Eric
I did deflate and reshape. It didn't help. It had overrisen too much (or maybe I overkneaded in my eagerness to play with the frisage and French fold??). I made bricks.
I'm hoping the bread will be okay for toast and dressing (stuffing).
it rise again before baking. If it's very overproofed and very wet, try folding with a little flour. Mini O
Next time, I will try that, MO. (Actually I hope there won't BE a next time and that I'll never let dough overrise again.)
I did add a bit of flour when pushing it down before shaping. But again I added a bit of flour when shaping it. It was still pretty flacid. And then it just didn't really want to rise much after shaping.
I baked it anyway and we have flat bread that makes okay toast. (And it's still better than the flavour-free commercial dreck that's full of perservatives)
Hi, Ilpresidente. If you are in fact working your dough in the many-smackdown manner demonstrated by the fabulous Ms. Forestier, you don't need to let it ferment so long. Or, if you like the taste effect of the long ferment, you need not work the dough as much as she does. The technique she demonstrates develops the heck out of the gluten, so the bread can be baked within hours. With the hands-off long ferment, time and a bit of folding serve the same purpose. If you are doing both, that could be why your texture is overly toothy.
I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
You might also get a different texture by using a lower-protein flour or flour mix. I always use 100% bread flour, which tends to make a chewier loaf. Is that what you are using? All-purpose might give you softer results too.
"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."
IlPresidente, If you skipped over the very first video link at the top of this thread, You should take a look. It shows the French Fold method of developing gluten. It's very easy and believe it or not it works very well, even with slack doughs. Cooky suggested above using a weaker flour like all purpose (AP). Working it less will also help with the chewiness as well as raising the hydration level.
If you give us the formula you are using I'm sure a good solution can be found.
Eric
Hi. The preceeding pages, starting with "Eye opening techniques" is the most helpul and most informative I have read or watched. I got hooked a couple of months ago, with an obsession to make a nice loaf/ I have used (maybe- wasted) hours, many pounds of flour, even lost sleep, wondering where I was going wrong. I have trawled U Tube, Jamie, Nigella,(goes to her local baker !!!), been to the library. Even tried to enrol on a bakery course at tech (none available this year)I have had a couple of pleasing results, but generally ended with disappointment. I didnt realise there were so many variations on the theme. I have been near, but failed at the nth hurdle. Today, I made a nice loaf. To look at, to eat, and I am so thrilled! My family think "Dad has gone a bit sad". But they did enjoy the bread I made.I shall do another mix, to bake tomorrow, in the belief, that I have "cracked it!" So thanks you contributors to this theme.
Jonsey, I know the feeling when you first discover you have the process down and you can make good bread. It IS very satisfying indeed. Please assure the family you are fine and just following in the footsteps of our forefathers learning to feed our families in grand style.
Eric
Videos are really wonderful for those of us who have no atisan breadbakers nearby to teach us. Lord knows how often I've misunderstood a written instruction or description!
I enjoy making my breads without using mixers- doing as much of this by hand as possible is important to me and part of the enjoyment of baking. I've used both the mixing and kneading methods shown in Julia Child's video- I learned them from Nancy Silverton's book Breads from La Brea Bakery.
As far as the four-sided folding, I really enjoyed using that method when making ciabatta, and will try to remember to do that when making other types of breads.
I always knead by hand and have become pretty competant with the french fold (which I use for everything except maybe stiff doughs like bagel) but the 15 second knead concept is a real eye opener. As soon as my starter is revived I plan to try your "fold and wait" technique. BTW - I always have been skeptical about the idea of preheating for extended periods. Some books even recommend TWO HOURS of preheating. I mean, we're talking "metal boxes" not brick ovens!
Summer
Watched the Julia Child/Daniel Forester baguette demonstration. May make a beatiful and delicious bread but I found it exhausting and may discourage future bakers. But then I am lazy baker and enjoy my bread.
I just took the time to review this thread which I started a long time ago. The purpose was to see if it was time to update any of the advice I had offered and see how people had responded over the last few years. It's still a great thread and nice to see people are still finding hand made bread fun to make.
I would like to say that if you are struggling trying to make good bread, read this thread. Please, please, do try to learn how to mix the dough by hand. Even if you just spend hundreds on a new mixer or think you can't possibly live without using that nice looking stand mixer. Drag your self away from the machine and mix 3 or 4 loaves by hand. You will learn quickly what the dough should feel like. Look for the thread by bwraith HERE and see how easily he starts the gluten being developed first by using the French Fold and later by Stretch and Fold, on a clean counter.
The first link I posted to the original French Fold is still active here and is still very good. Please take a look at the written instructions link at the bottom for full understanding of this great bread and a basis for developing your own daily bread formula.
Recently a new poster here (Shiao-Ping) has introduced the method developed by James MacGuire for developing proper gluten. MacGuire was the technical editor for Prof. Raymond Calvel. The post that describes the method can be found HERE. This seems to be the best method for creating a perfectly developed and silky satin dough. I have found, as was suggested that if I raise the hydration to 80%, the dough will at first be sticky and difficult but as you fold it every hour during a 4 hour ferment time, at the end it comes together wonderfully. All that is needed is a large bowl and a plastic scraper.
Flour has in itself a wonderful flavor. By not beating it to death with a mixer, you can allow yourself the pleasure of tasting and smelling the natural nuttiness and distinct flavors of hand made bread. Observe the creamy yellow shades of the natural product as they were intended to be seen. Try this once and be transformed.
Eric
Eric, I revisited the Richard Bertinet sweet dough video. He slaps that dough around! Others recommend being "vigorous" with the dough. Still others say you should be gentle with your dough. What's the story here?
Rosalie
The Bertinet method is quite good for you if you've had a particularly nasty day. I think that I made cinnamon rolls using it once after I'd completely screwed up dinner. I definitely slapped that dough around but good.
I think it all comes down to preference, really. Most methods will work well with any dough (although some will work better with wetter doughs than others) and are meant to do the same thing: adequately develop the gluten in a dough. You use what works for you and that be that.
Personally, I use a mixture of autolyse, stretch and fold, fold-in-the-bowl, and slapping the dough around. I do a combination of techniques with almost all doughs but the really stiff ones. Bagel dough and the like, which are never really sticky, get the good-old-fashioned push-pull kneading that my great grandmother used.
The way I see it, if you start to develop with a little slap and fold ala Bertinet or sourdo-guy and then wait for a gentle stretch for the next few hours, things will be fine.
Eric
Many thanks again for this thread!
I've been using the "cat trying to get comfortable on a soft pillow" (big surprise, I made up that name) method with one hand and dough scraper to clean the board from time to time for kneading soft dough. But I've GOT to try this Bertinet "invert and slap" method.
I also find the recent edit about oven temperature to be fascinating. Just to clarify, are you leaving the oven turned on for about 5 minutes before putting the bread in the oven, Eric? And do you have a stone in there?
-Elizabeth
I am a relative new member of TFL, so I missed all the older postings on this thread. Eric, your original links to videos were excellent. Your ongoing comments are constructive and ...well... just plain great. I would have a few arguments over the number of times that we should "slap and knead" dough, but the techniques are very sound, and ageless. I can only speak as a person who learned to cook from watching commonplace bread/pizza makers in Quebec 35 years ago. Yes... the French, even the Quebecois, DID appreciate their wonderful breads & other cooking venues. Living in a totally french area left a lasting impression on my attempts at baking/other cooking. Thanks, for a very informative post.
Whoa!! This is a great technique and works just as quickly as promised. Cool!!
Because the amount of dough I was kneading was much smaller than the amount Bertinet mixed, I modified the method to use only one hand so that my other hand stayed dough-free for easier bench scraping. (I am making 1½ times the baguette recipe in The Bread Bible by Rose Levy Beranbaum.)
Many thanks again for this video link and thread, Eric.
-Elizabeth
P.S. My husband wanted to try too so came in near the end of the kneading to do some slapping and folding too. (Oh dear, I hope nobody is going to take advantage of that opening!) I was amazed at the difference in temperature of the dough after he had been handling it. I always knew I had cold hands... no wonder I have to knead a little longer than some people!
gourmet.com: Richard Bertinet Video "The Technique: Sweet Dough"
The other day, I thought I'd experiment with this method. I preheated the oven for about 5 minutes (stone in). It was only at about 250F when I started to put the bread in. But I didn’t think it mattered. Because of the others who bake bread starting in a cold oven....
What a nightmare!! There was virtually no oven-popping (it's possible that the bread was a little overproofed). Among other difficulties, the worst result was that the baked bread was stuck fast to the stone. As if it had been glued. I had to use a metal spatula and elbow grease to get the bread released.
Luckily, the bread tasted okay.
(Sorry, no photographic evidence - I didn’t dare pick up the camera. I was clearly on a failing roll.)
On a happy note, as I mentioned earlier, Bertinet's "slap and fold" kneading method is fabulous.
-Elizabeth
more details about the event here: Augh!!! (Richard Bertinet's "slap and fold" kneading method; no pre-heating on oven; how not to bake bread;)
So sorry to hear about your sticking bread disaster, Elizabeth. I'm afraid bad words would have been flying if that was my kitchen. I wonder whether Eric is using a stone when he only partly heats the oven before adding the bread? I always assumed that the stone had to be really hot - or the bread had to be baked on a sheet with no stone. I'm sure Eric will clarify that for me. I always use a modified Bertinet method now and find it transforms a lumpy mass to a smooth dough very quickly. I wet the counter and one hand and slap away - does tend to send white "freckles" far and wide though. A.
I agree, the stone needs to be pre-heated. If it isn't, then the coldness of the stone will keep the bread from getting the heat it needs for oven spring. I assume Eric will come back and say that, no, he's not using a stone at those times.
Rosalie
I cannot tell a lie, Annie. There were definitely harshly self-abusive verbal slurs being cast around as I threw the oven mitts. I shouldn't have implied otherwise....
Good idea to wet your hands when using the Bertinet method. I may try that.
Rosalie, I suspect that you're right about the stone needing to be fully preheated. But I'm not sure that there would have been oven spring even with preheating. I think the dough had over-risen. I'm definitely not going to test that "no preheating" method again though with perfectly risen bread!
Luckily, after the stone cooled, the portions of the loaf that remained stuck to the stone (after the rest of the loaf was pried off) were easily removed with our dough scraper.
-Elizabeth
I've had my share of baking disasters and bad words slung around. I baked ciabatta without realizing I had no parchment paper, and had no easy way to transfer the proofed dough onto my baking stone. Oh, there was cursing and gnashing of teeth that day!!
Eric,
I loved your post today. I have also discovered that fold and stretch several times will tame high hydration dough and have had an "ah ha!" moment.
Question for you: For the home baker what is a good way to control the temperature of the fermenting process at 78 degrees and proofing temperature. I have tried putting the dough in my microwave with a measuring cup of boiling water and closing the door but I never really know what the temperature is. I have heard that some folks use a heating pad.
Thanks again.
Dorothy, shuttervector@gmail.com
I find that the best way to control temperature is to start with the temp you want to maintain. That sounds like too simple of and answer but it is much harder to raise the temp of a mass of dough 5 or 10 degrees than it is to maintain that temp. So start by calculating what the water temp should be to arrive at the Desired Dough Temperature (DDT).
In my kitchen, I find the cabinet just above the refrigerator is generally warmer than the room temperature by 10 degrees F. It is early Spring now and 45F outside, 68 inside and 78 in my proofing cabinet. I also use the microwave with a cup of boiling water for proofing dough in tins or brotforms. The humidity is high enough I don't cover the dough and it is usually around 90F.
One of the best tools I own and would replace immediately is my Raytec IR thermometer. It was around $45. online and I use it several times every day. Determining the temp of the cabinet, the garage I use for retarding, the floor where I sometimes retard near the garage door, the water I have just warmed in the MW, the dough after mixing, the starter I am about to mix with water, the list goes on and on. There is no more important component in baking than controlling the temperature of the fermenting dough. Being able to measure the temperature quickly of everything from water to baking stone with the click of a finger is well, priceless.
BTW the link above isn't necessarily where I bought my Raytec, just an example of the product. They sell different models on Amazon in that range.
Eric
I want to try the cold start method of baking. I have a good high end oven and it takes at about 40 minutes to reach 450 degrees. Its electric and I've read here that some of yours only take 7 minutes to get to 450-500 ? Is my oven so unusual ?
We have an electric stove and it takes about 9-10 mins to reach 425 degrees. Sounds like you have a problem. I'm no expert but 40 minutes is a long time. That's my standard baking time for bread.
That sounds like a long time to get up to temperature. I think if it really takes 40 minutes I suggest you turn it on and as your dough is about that time away from being proofed. I know that's a hard thing to estimate but when the bread is ready just go ahead and load it at what ever temp it is at. You are baking on a sheet pan which will heat quickly. You might have to experiment with the shelf height but I would start with the second from bottom, no stone. Depending on how warm the oven is when you load the bread, watch for the internal temperature to be above 195-205F. It might take a time or two to find the right procedure but this is way better than heating to 450 and waiting another hour for the stone to warm up.
Let me know how it works.
Eric
I bought a oven temp gage to check the validity of the temp turning on and off when it is set to a temp. So far it has shown the oven to be accurately sensing temps at 300, 350 and 450.
I am going to turn it on, without the stone in it and time actually how long it takes to get to 450. I'm pretty sure about 30-40 minutes being correct but I'll put the gage in, stone out and verify.
Thanks for the suggestions on how to compensate, will do experimenting till I get correct.
I timed it today and it was 21 minutes give or take 15 seconds, to get to 450. I guess that's closer to 8 minutes some of your folk's ovens heat up at. I can live with that. I measured the door and its 30"
I found the owners manual and installation instructions. It does not seem like an abynormal (Young Frankenstein fans know that's spelled correctly) oven. The only thing that I am not seeing, is the bottom element. It is covered but I bet that with most newer ovens that is standard ?
I'm guessing that covered bottom element is also the reason it takes so much longer in preheating, as compared to those with exposed elements. That exposed element remains a glowing red hot, directly heating the air, until the set temp is reached.
When you timed how long it takes to warm up, did you have the fan running? I have heard that help to shorten the warm time but I don't have one. Thee bottom element must be covered which slows down the warm time somewhat. It is what it is anyway. I would look for a heavy duty rimless cookie sheet and a SS bowl that just fits on top of the sheet. A 4 liter bowl will probably work. Then you have everything you need to bake Susan's Magic Bowl covered method.
Eric
I cannot see that I have control of the fan running or not. It comes on and stays on during convection cycles but not all the time during regular bake. Right now I'm roasting a duck at 325, regular bake, the fan comes on then shuts off and back on again at intervals, which are not in sync with the heating elements coming on or off to maintain temp.
So I watched that crazy Richard Bertinet's video! I thought, NO WAY! I'm cooking up some PR hawaiian rolls today and thought I'd give it a try.
It worked!!
At first I thought there is no way this can be slapped into perfection without flour, but after about 15 min. it came true!!
Wow! What a workout though! :) The video of the guy slapping his dough in 10 sec. was WAY crazy!! I'll have to practice on that!
Thanks for the tips Eric, I always appreciate your ideas and insight!! :)
Faith
Yea those are pretty crazy videos. I remember the first time I watched the sourdough guy video where he develops the gluten in 5 folds and slaps. I had to keep going back to the video and watching it over and over. It's so simple when you get the hang of it.
The trick is to just do it a few times and then let the dough sit resting for 20-30 minutes and then stretch and fold, wait 20 and S&F again. The stretch and fold is much less violent and leaves the bubbles intact. I'm about to do that right now on some baguette dough. I love it.
Eric
I have been making bread for only a couple months now. Read the usual suspects (Reinhart, Hamelman) and have had some success. HOWEVER, after increasing frustration with kneading with a mixer (7 qt Cuisinart), I cannot say enough good things about the fold technique described above. I used this technique for the first time this week. The crumb is far superior by this method--so chewey, variably sized holes with beautiful "membranes". I have used this to make Hamelman's Baguettes and Pain Rustique. Handling dough by hand is a necessary teacher it seems, although I have no doubt the background knowledge gained (particulary in Hamelman's Bread) has been equally necessary for me.
I'm glad you found the old Eye Opening Techniques helpful. I get a lot of notes to the same effect. When I wrote that, it was little known information. Somehow, in the years that passed, we all know now that time and gentle folding does the same or better job of developing gluten. Getting to know your dough is a great thing.
Good luck baking.
Eric
This post has been my "go to" when I started making bread 2 yrs ago. I have just read the sad news of Eric's passing and would like to see this and other of his posts perpetuade on this site. He will be missed!
When I saw this post I started doing French slap and folds ever since with a few S&F's. Made my bread making worth baking. Eric changed everything bread wise for me. He was too young and will be missed.