100% Sourdough Rye
This is the bread that's haunting me lately. My first two attempts at 100% sourdough rye failed miserably - and asked for help here. I am glad that I asked, TFL has so many knowledgable and helpful people willing to help out. Specifically Andy directed me to his recipe here, and provided me with many tips. Mini, whose post and pictures on her favorite rye has been studied to death by me, also provided encouragement and some helpful hints.
My rye starter is very active, so I reduced the pre-fermented flour ratio in Andy's formula to about 29%, the final rise was still <2hours at 30C, next time I might reduce even more. A lot of people responded to my question thread mentioned that it's important to use the right tin, so I used two mini pullman pan, narrow and long, each took about 370g of dough. Filled to 60% full, when I put them in the oven, they were 90% full. Baked at 460F for 10min, then 410F for 15min.
Still no great ovenspring, but at least the top is domed. Maybe I am still overproofing it?
Looking at the crumb, I see it's "heavy" in the bottom, is that also a sign of overproofing? Or maybe when I put the dough in the pan, I pushed the dough down a bit too much?
This size of bread is perfect for cocktail rye, I in fact used some for a party, with honey/mango, and cheese/avacado, very well received
It stayed moist and flavorful for days after, very yummy. BUT, it got moldy after staying in the plastic bag for 5 days, how do I prevent that? Andy's formula is very good, I will definitely make it again and again, hopefully timing the proofing better. Will also experiment with soaking some rye flour with boiling water.
Comments
That's a very nice looking panned rye. The bottom does look like it needed a tad more heat in the initial bake or more total bake time. Try increasing the heat for the initial bake to compensate for the fact it's panned. The dough has another layer between it and the oven heat because of the pan, but if it goes in at 460 and you reduce the heat gradually over a longer bake time you should be able to eliminate that little bit of under-baked bottom section. The fact that it went moldy after 5 days is a good indication it needed more oven time. I'm not a rye expert like Andy , but this is my best take on the your otherwise excellent looking 100% rye. Regardless , check with Andy when he gets back from vacation.
All the best,
Franko
Thank you so much for the comments. So the heavy bottom is due to low temp and not baked long enough, I would've never thought of that myself - I thought it was related to proofing time. I will adjust accordingly next time!
Though you seek perfection, which is not bad, I think your loaf is beautiful! The crumb looks remarkable. If only my 100% ryes could look as nice.
I agree with Franko, you should have a higher initial temp when loading the loaves. My Grandfather used to mention to me about when he worked in a bakery before WW2, they baked a lot of rye and complained about how hot they would have to get the oven in the morning before loading it. I myself only bake with small percentage rye loaves at work so I do not need to raise the temp on the ovens.
By the way, are you baking without a top to your pullman pan? Since you mention the loaf (and it appears to be) doming a bit at the top leads me to believe you bake without the top.
I wish I could help give pointers, but rye is something I too am still working on.
Also may I ask where you found mini pullman pans? I am searching for pullmans myself and unforunately through work, if I were to purchase some, I'd have to buy a case, and I can not see myself using a case personally : /
I will definitely get the intial temp higher next time.
Yes, I baked these without the lid, but I have used the same tins with lid on for other breads. I got these from China (a baking friend in China gave them to me as gifts actually), 4 of them, each is only < 1/5 of my large 4X4X13 pullman pan, so cute and perfect for experimenting with formulas.
You're just tinkering at the edges of perfection with that rye I think. I nearly messed up my computer screen trying to slather some goat's cheese on those beautiful slices!
Larry
I guess I am just "ruined" by the great crumb shot of Mini's pure sourdough rye.:P
Your bread looks just great I would love to have the recipe
Knud
The formula is linked in the original post, but there it is again: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15577/pure-sourdough-rye-year-1939#comment-99318
but you might also not let it proof so long. The air pockets are just starting to break into one another but I think it is borderline. Too close for comfort! You might get more rise getting it sooner into the oven. There still is a nice distribution of bubbles. That juicy mango shot makes me want to get my hands on some ripe mango!
It looks good and so mini! Anything mini can't be too bad. :)
Mini
I hear you about the proofing time - next time I will proof less and bake with higher temp. It's all in the timing, and I am still getting to know temperament of rye.
I agree with Mini about the overproofing, the pores are a little too big (otherwise it looks fine). 100% rye breads should be dense. I wouldn't expect much oven spring from a 100% rye bread, either.
Stored in a plastic bag it will get moldy because it retains a lot of moisture. The supermarket rye breads you buy in plastic bags are treated with a lot of preservatives and therefore don't get moldy as fast as home baked bread.
I would either freeze half of it or wrap it in aluminum foil after 24 hrs after baking.
Karin
Karin, your comment about the pores being a little too big is very interesting. The received wisdom is, as you say, that these breads should be dense. Yet, there is what seems to be a strong compulsion, especially among some modern home bakers, to produce impressive pores in any kind of bread.
It would be great if someone would post a picture of what they believe to be the most desirable cell structure for a 100% sourdough rye baked in a pan, covered pullman or open. A point of reference like that would be very useful.
You're right, Louie, sometimes I wonder, too, about all this gushing over the-bigger-the-better holes, no matter what bread!
Rye doesn't have much gluten, and especially a 100% rye bread can't rise like a wheat bread (unless you add a lot of vital wheat gluten to it). It can't deliver a considerable oven spring, either.
I grew up - and lived until 2001 - with these breads in Germany, they don't have really big pores. Since they are often made with either whole rye berries or rye chops and rye meal, they are dense and chewy, so you have something to bite on, but they are not hard - and definitely not dry, but moist.
Vollkornbrot or Schwarzbrot is not degusted like wine (old = nobly aged)! It's treated like any other old bread, and not considered at all superior to fresh bread! I use it for a fantastic dessert (Pommersche Goetterspeise = Pommeranian Ambrosia), but what's left in bakeries, and hasn't sold when it's fresh, is given to farmers and fed to the pigs.
This kind of bread also has a crisp, caramelized crust. The crust is not supposed to be soft, and bakeries don't sell those breads in plastic bags (They don't sell any fresh breads in plastic bags, for that matter, they pack them in paper bags). Only mass-produced, sliced breads with all their preservatives are sold in plastic bags.
Peter Reinhart's Vollkornbrot in WGB is pretty much what a 100% rye bread of this type should be (except from the too much molasses). His suggestion of turning the loaf out of the pan soon as it holds its shape, and baking it from all sides on the stone, produces the right kind of caramelization (I experimented with the times, though, and my crust is thinner).
In German Vollkornbrot or Schwarzbrot recipes it's even often stated that the bread should not much, or not at all, rise after it is panned.
I'll post a photo of the crumb, I'm baking Vollkornbrot tomorrow for the store.
Karin
Lots for me to think over, thanks!
BTW, Louie, I am not after a hole-y 100% rye crumb. I am after a well risen, even crumb. I know 100% rye would be dense and heavy, but I don't want mine to be sticky, with a noticable structural difference between the top half and bottom half. Check out this thread: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15736/mini039s-favorite-rye-ratio , Mini posted a crumb shot a bit lower in the thread (titled "crumb shot"), gorgously even.
Absolutely, txfarmer. I understand - and share - your objective (to which I will reapply myself once the weather becomes cooler here in New York City.) My comment was meant generally.
I wonder what kind of flour mini used there? The crumb shot is just spectacular. All I can find near home is Bob's Red Mill dark rye. It is delicious, but it is a challenge.
Bob's is what I use also, and lately it has mysteriously disappeared from all my grocers?! I also have some white rye flour from King Arthur, but it has a lot less flavor. I had to buy a different brand yesterday - which is only 3lb per bag (came out a lot more $$$ than Bob's), now that's just not enoug for ANYONE! :P
Hanseata, please can you tell me what kind of bread is the one below?
http://www.pema.de/xist4c/web/RYE-BREAD_id_7249_.htm
Is it Vollkornbrot, Schwarzbrot, or Schrotbrot or what else? It's the bread that made me fall in love with rye:-) A deep love at first taste!
The label reads "Whole grain rye" meaning that the berries are added to the dough uncracked and uncut? Surely they are soaked.
That bread looks like pieces of berries kept together by little dough, not dough with some added berry.
Thanks.