December 22, 2009 - 11:29am
kitchenaid Pro with all steel gears?
So now that the Kitchenaid Pro has gone back to "direct-drive all steel gears", does that make it more worthy to buy? I know that many in this forum have complained about the plastic gears, but at least on the Kitchenaid website, it appears that the gears are metal. It also appears that the Pro sold on Amazon has the same metal gears model as well. From what I can tell, the William-Sonoma Pro is still the old plastic gears. Since I cannot afford either the DLX or the Bosch, and since with a rebate it would cost $350 to buy the Pro 600 model, does anybody have any thoughts?
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Here's a review at appliance.net (disclaimer- I edit the site) of the Pro 600.
http://www.appliance.net/2007/sometimes-you-just-need-13-dozen-cookies-239
It includes this quote:
Hope this helps,
Marni
I was mixing stollen dough 2 days ago and I could tell my 1 year old Pro 600 is about ready to die. The gear head was getting hot, making awful noises, and smelling bad. The dough I make is always pretty soft and I don't see any reason for it to wear out so fast. I guess this should be too surprising because the first time I turned the mixer on after buying it it sounded like it had a gear box full of sand.
Yesterday, my brother said he had just called to get his second broken down KA in the last 6 months replaced and they gave him a hard time. After explaining that he only mixes soft dough and only runs it in speed 2 with the dough spiral as they recommend, they told him it was his fault because he was using it for a recipe that wasn't in the KitchenAid cookbook that came with the mixer. He couldn't believe his ears and asked them if they were serious, and they said they did NOT recommend using the KitchhenAid mixer for any recipe that was not in the book supplied with the mixer.
Another major problem with this mixer is that the dough spiral is so far above the bottom of the bowl (even when adjusted as far down as possible) that when mixing soft dough, unless you have quite a bit of dough in the bowl, the spiral won't do anything but smear the top of the dough a bit. It won't knead the dough at all unless you have quite a bit of dough in the bowl. This is particularly true for rye dough. This is partially because the recommended speed 2 it too slow for developing the dough.
I'm going to start looking for another option. I wish I had room for a mixer dedicated just to dough. Then I'd definitely get the TMB SP5.
My 17 year old KA is sounding tired and starting to leak gear oil where the mixing shaft comes out, so my wife just bought me a Pro 600 for Christmas. My first impressions are good. The gears were 'slightly' noise out of the box, but quieted down within seconds. Since this IS Alaska, I figured it had cold lube in it ...so I let it run, empty, for 30 minutes on speed 2 just to get lubes warmed up, redistributed, and what not. As usual for all KA's, I did have to adjust the bowl all the way up in order to get the whisk and flat beater closer to the bottom of the bowl. I'm not sure why, but KA is always very conservative in their factory adjustment of bowl height, but the instruction manual clearly indicates that as long as the paddle or whisk do not touch the bowl, then you are fine.
The first thing it got used for was the Harvey Wallbanger cake (recipe at King Arthur's web site) and I was impressed that the mixer did a better job producing the batter than my old KA, but I notice that the flat beater now has an additional 'branch' running across the middle, so maybe that's it? Next, I made a 7-cup whole wheat sandwich bread recipe using the flat blade for initial mixing, then switching to the dough hook when the dough was starting to gather up a bit. The spiral dough hook kept the dough in the bowl rather than letting it climb up the shaft like the old one always did and I didn't have to intervene at all. The machine kneaded the dough as though it wasn't even there (using speed 2 all the time). The manual stated that most doughs are fully kneaded in only about 4 minutes ...and it was. I checked at 4 minutes and the dough was a silky smooth ball of dough, much better than I'd get by hand (unless using time and folds rather than kneading). I would say that so far, the Pro 600 seems great. Worked great for me so far, zero hesitation when it comes to power, and it ran fairly quietly ...it sounds like an electric motor, but gear and other mechanical noise is non-existent on this one. I'm looking forward to baking a large batch of rye bread so I can see how it does with a stiff rye dough ...usually the most challenging dough that a mixer would have to mix.
Brian
Congratulations.
So how many(max) cups of flour is it recommended for?
Whole wheat max?
Thanks.
From reading the comments on this site and others it seems that new KitchenAid mixers are a real gamble. Maybe you will get a good one and maybe you will not. I like better odds than that for the cost involved in a mixer.
Jeff
The manual says 14 cups, max, but doesn't say whole wheat, rye, or what. I always take maximums with a grain of salt (haha) and will likely never push it past maybe 10-11 cups, and a recipe that size won't be a stiff rye one. IF my wife read my mind more accurately prior to buying a surprise gift for me, she'd have heard "Electrolux DLX" ...but all that got through was "new mixer"... no big deal. She loved me enough to go buy what she honestly believed was the best available. I have been pleasantly surprised by the machine so far so I won't complain until the machine proves itself worthy of complaint and I don't sense that kind of experience coming. Plus, we have a bunch of KA accessories that still work for us since we stayed with the same brand. A switch to some other brand would've meant a lot more cost involved than just the difference in mixer prices. I'll give the machine a fair chance and hope for the best. I get the feeling that KA has heard the consumer complaints and is making an effort to return to the good ol' Hobart days. I'll let them have that chance... I never complain about a company trying to turn things towards higher quality. It sure beats all the change in the opposite direction ...
...And no matter what, lots of good bread will come out of that machine! Something we all love!
Brian
I'll admit it is my first stand mixer and I have only had it 10 days (10 days of non stop use I must add) Everyone in the family loves it. I am enthralled and motivated to consider making things I never have before. I researched awhile before going with this. No regrets. Got it from pleasantgrainmill.com.
I ruled out KitchenAid for reasons mentioned above and many many bad reviews I read. So for me, it was between Bosch and Viking. My friend has a KitchenAid Artisan and LOVES IT! She doesn't bake breads though
I LOVE MY VIKING!
You need to know what you will be doing with it. A KitchenAid just doesn't seem to hold up to regularly kneading heavy, stiff dough, but if you are going to be using it for a variety of jobs (cakes, cookies, challah and basic bread kneading) it probably fits the bill. A Pro600 holds a lot of flour (14 cups - around 5lbs). Is that needed?
I have an Artisan that I use every day. I have a Pro600 in the garage, it's just too big to keep around for the once a week jobs it could do. The Artisan is only two years old and it's holding up fine, but I don't overwork it. For large jobs, I use my hands. (or get my kids to help :))
My feeling is that a Bosch or DLX would be the choice for a serious bread baker who doesn't plan to use it often for other jobs. Or an addition to the smaller Artisan - I'd like one someday!
Comparing costs is different, the Artisan can handle a lot and doesn't cost nearly what the others do. I see it as a good compromise. Maybe a stepping stone to the costlier machine for someone who is beginning with bread baking.
(and I don't sell either of them) ;)
Marni
I just found this at appliance.net and it says the Artisan has all metal construction and a direct drive transmission. What I don't know is if "all metal construction" includes the gears.
Marni
After years of use out of my little KA Artisan (bought in the 80's) I finally felt the need to upgrade as I was baking larger batches of bread. I bought the KA600 pro as it was the largest capacity widely available at the time. Initially it seemed unbelievably loud from the noisy gears and it never quieted down. I had several times where the mixer shut down due to overheating when making successive batches of sourdough breads (never exceeding stated capacity).
Finally, after reading reports of the plastic GEAR HOUSING cracking, I was compelled to open my mixer up to see if indeed I had a plastic gear housing. Sure enough, the part of the machine designed to hold the all-metal gears is a big block of plastic, and in my case, it had a big crack in it and was actually leaking oil in small amounts from this crack. What good is all metal gears if you mount them in plastic? Plastic anywhere in this highly stressed machine is going to be the weak link.
I retired the KA600 after just over two years of medium use and now have a Cuisinart 7 qt. Unfortunately, I don't like this mixer all that much either. I will no doubt still be searching for the right mixer for me. Perhaps a Bosch?
http://www.shopkitchenaid.com/pdfs/50_Bowl_Lift_Cash_Back_11_19_09.pdf
If you can't round a form up some other way, here is a pdf from KitchenAid site.
"Looks" to be applicable. Check requirements/exclusions.
And/or for Amazon purchases:
Find your item at the Amazon site and check to see if rebate is offered, and check the buying period. You may find a link to the rebate form.
I also see where they may have offered online rebate processing for some items. If so, you should find the link to file online near the link to the pdf:
Example:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=dp_reb_online?ie=UTF8&docId=592317
Thanks... I'll look into it tonight after work. Need to ask the wife for the purchase date.
Brian
You(she) will have all that on the receipt/pack/etc. However you claim, you will definitely need your purchase documentation. Although it's usually pretty easy to recover needed documentation from amazon.
thanks all for the comments. I guess I'm still confused, but this is helpful nevertheless. My original query was an attempt to ascertain whether all the complaints I've seen here and elsewhere about KitchenAid were primarily directed at the older machines with plastic gears; and whether, now that they are making all metal gears, these complaints no longer apply. If that is the case, then I'd be inclined to get KitchenAid Pro if only because I've always had one (albeit hobart era) and I've been happy with it. It is slowly succumbing though.
but if the complaints and issues apply equally to the newer all metal gear Pro, then I probably should get a bosch (or maybe even a viking), since I certainly don't want an expensive dead appliance in my kitchen.
my needs: I tend to bake 5-6 loaves per week, in 2-3 loaf batches, depending on what I'm doing; generally sourdough, multi-grain, usually using recipes from Leader, Reinhartz, Hamelman; I rarely double the amounts, so I'm probably using anywhere from 5-8 cups of flour (rye, whole grain, white, etc) dep on the bread. I use my old, 27 year old machine (yes, still kitchenaid) for 2-3 minutes to gather the dough together, and then usually continue with stretch/fold, etc again depending on the bread. With my old machine the dough often climbs up the spiral, and I was thinking it would be nice to have the larger, more powerful machine (ha, mine is 250watts, hard to believe we used to think that was state of the art).
but I guess, I need to just make a decision!
If you're only using the mixer to mix, rather than also do all the kneading, then most any brand would likely work fine as long as you don't go too cheap.
You might want to google on just the KA Pro 600 when you go out looking for complaints. That would narrow the responses to just what's applicable ...and is something that I'm planning to do. But it's that busy time of year again...maybe next week?
As far as dough climbing up the dough hook, my old style dough hook did that, but on the 6 to 7 cup recipes that I've made so far, there was no tendency to climb. The dough sort of rises up, then looks like it's dividing into 3 parts, then the middle flops over and gets kneaded back in ...repeat. The spiral turns in the direction that would force dough down, not up.
Brian
You say you can't afford a Bosch but then you say with a rebate the KA would be $350/ The Bosch is $399 without a rebate. Seems as if the Bosch is as affordable as the KA at that rate and would be a better bet for baking bread as well as much easier to move around and store. Another plus is that the new Bosch has suckers on the base so it doesn't walk around when you use it at high speed.
Just to be thorough, some(in this thread) are saying they got the KA for net, after rebate, of $250.
I sure would love to find the kitchenaid PRO for $250, haven't seen that yet. but the bosch looks interesting; i hadn't really considered it originally (was thinking primarily about DLX, but that's just above my price range at this point) and I don't know anybody who has a Bosch, but I'll try to read up more about it. Since i know my own mixer is on last legs, would be better to have new machine in place, ready to go. We just got back from Paris, so I've spent all week trying to replicate the breads at Eric Kayser and others, hmm, should have brought flour home with me!!
Looks like you just missed that deal/price at Amazon. Probably wasn't the first, and probably won't be the last time for the offer. Of course, that is assuming no one is mistaken about the facts(details) of the deal.
The black 600 Pro unit comes to $274 at Amazon, with the $50 rebate. Free shipping as well.
Kitchen Aid is no longer the only game in town, check out the Breville M800XL BREBEM800XL 5 Quart Die-Cast Stand Mixer. For almost the same price as the Kitchen Aid Artisan, you can afford a Breville which the last time I looked was, according to Consumers Reports, the better machine AND it is several hundred less than the Pro! If you would prefer Bosch then check out Ebay where I got a slightly used Bosch Universal (previous version) with a few accessories for $199 plus shipping.
eville
Hi all - following up on/reviving this conversation.
I've got a KA Pro600, and am just starting to get into bread making. After really abusing it (very stiff dough, about 15 minutes of kneading, and going above 2), at one point, the motor was completely shot. I got it repaired, and it is running great, but I am a bit gun shy.
So my question - for folks with this model, in your experience, how much can you push it? What's your general practice for mixing/kneading - do you use only on speed 2? Or mix on 1 and then knead on 2? Is 7 minutes a hard stop? Obviously I'm hoping not to fry the machine again, but would love to figure out a good general rule for mixing times that will get the job done without putting the machine at risk. Mostly I am mixing doughs with about 1/3 prefermented flour (generally poolish), and 65 - 70% hydration, and using King Arthur AP or bread flour depending on the bread.
Thanks for any thoughts! Next step may be a mixer upgrade, but I'd like to try to figure out the KitchenAid first.
Adam
any google site but, youtube does have no end of videos on Kitchenaid mixers so it may be worth a few searches to see if you can find anything on this.
I found a couple of videos last week on how to repair ours which actually were useful.
I wouldn't buy a KA to mix dough. Even putting the durability issue aside, it doesn't do that great of a job unless the dough quantity and hydration hits a particular sweet spot.
The Bosch mixer works great as long as you're mixing up at least a couple of loaves worth of dough; doesn't work well on small batches or very wet dough. The open top is nice.
I keep a Ankarsrum for bread dough, then use my Cuisinart 7 qt for everything else. I hate the Cuisinart, but I bought it in anger after my KA died. At some point, I'll replace it with the newer KA and use it only for non-bread activities.
Adam, I don't want to bash KA, since it is a good general purpose mixer, but I am with grayson, if you want a bread kneading machine you can't do much better than an Ankarsrum - if funds are tight, look for used on ebay - it was marketed under a bunch of names, Electrolux, Magic Mill , etc, but it is built like a tank and even used should last your lifetime.
The Bosch with the available dough hook extender allows it to mix small batches. The first time I used my new Bosch I made a beautiful 250g dough for pizza.
So I've been informed, but it does lead me into another rant about the Bosch: you have to buy a lot of additional attachments to make it work well. I've got a whole bagful of different paddles and beaters, scrapers, etc, that I had to buy after getting the Bosch. I think of these as "hacks" needed to make the original product work right, which suggests a flawed design.
The Ankarsrum has everything it needs to work well right out of the box.
Yup, I have to agree with the other posters here. My Ankarsrum handles everything until I need to use my 20-quart Univex. You can mix small amounts in the Ank using the roller and scraper, or larger amounts using the dough hook.
I can run up to about 4,500 grams in the Ank but past that things get messy. The motor never bogs down but the dough starts to climb out of the bowl.
I am very pleased with my Ankarsrum purchase.