Dough getting worse with each knead
I have a very active ww starter that tripled in less than 4 hours.
I did about 500g of bread flour with 80% hydration and 2% salt and 75g of starter.
I autolysed the flour for about an hour and it was very nice and elastic. I added the salt and starter and a tiny bit of water to mix that all in. Dough was still very nice. I rested it for about 15 minutes and dumped it onto my counter for some slap and folds. The first few slap and folds went fine and the dough became more elastic. However as I went on, the dough got worse and worse and became even worse than before autolyse. I added some more flour as I thought maybe the dough was too hydrated. Left that dough to rest and the same thing happens. What am I doing wrong?
Flour I’m using is wessex mill’s strong white bread flour which has a 13% protein. Autolyse and following tests were kept in my oven with the light on. Temperature is about 25c.
At this point, I've added extra flour twice now and I've just given up kneading and gone in with the stretch and folds. I plan on doing 6 stretch and folds or until (hopefully) the dough comes together. I've probably added 20-30g more flour overall so hydration is somewhere around 75-80%.
I think the dough falling apart when I try to knead may have something to do with a mixture of my wet hands and/or the slightly damp counter (I'd given it a wipe before dumping the dough onto it).
I was going to ask you if you wet your hands. When I had that problem, I switched to oiling my hands.
I'm assuming you're using normal unflavoured vegetable oil? Does this change the bread at the end though? (as you're adding a bit of oil to the dough)
Yes, neutral oil. The amount is so tiny it makes no difference to the bread.
After 3 coil folds spaced 15 minutes apart, the dough is looking pretty smooth and has some good gluten development. Still sticky thought that's probably to be expected. I'm noticing that there are quite a bit of surface bubbles but now a lot of rise. Maybe something to do with the dough or maybe I'm being too rough with the coil folds?
I don't know what you mean by "even worse", and it's hard for me to see how the dough could have reverted to a pre-autolyse feel. Please describe what you noticed that lead you to write "worse".
The usual progression, which it sounds like you know very well, is that after hand mixing you have a shaggy, dough that isn't very elastic or extensible. With such a high hydration, it would probably be sticky and less of a lump than a kind of paste. After a rest or autolyse the dough will be smoother and more willing to stretch out, but you might be able to tear the dough if you pull it too hard.
After more rests and S&Fs, the dough will be smoother. It will pull out better and as you work through a set of folds will become more elastic and less extensible. During each rest period the dough will relax and become more extensible and less elastic.
I don't see how at this point the dough could revert to a shaggy stodgy inextensible, but inelastic lump. I can see that it could become limp and lifeless, pulling out with no effort and never working up some elasticity..
So please, more description!
TomP
My bad, that was probably exaggerated. The dough as I kneaded it became more shaggy and less extensible and just started to fall apart in my hand to the point where I couldn't even pick up the dough to knead (the dough wouldn't even come off the counter and I had to use a bench scraper to get it back into the bowl). The dough became very like it was over hydrated, whenever I try to pick it up it would just tear and slodge back into the bowl, weird thing is I only added a very small amount of water after autolyse to incorporate salt and starter and the dough still came together when I mixed everything in. It wasn't until after I started kneading did the dough start to become less and less elastic and more and more sticky.
Your dough seems to have a fairly high hydration. Dough like that will tend to be very sticky and extensible not elastic. But before the gluten gets well developed, it may not seem elastic but it won't be able to stretch very far either.
About picking it it with a bench scraper, I almost always use mine to free up the dough, even lower hydration doughs. It's a helpful tool, don't overlook it.
It will be hard to knead a high-hydration dough. Once you get all the flour hydrated, do minimal kneading and then stretch the dough a few times before letting it rest for the next S&F. Let time do much of the work of developing gluten. Your S&Fs will help time work - don't work too hard at them. Stretch the dough out but not so far it tears. More elasticity will gradually build up.
If your dough gives up and becomes limp or lifeless at some point, it could be because the protein was attacked and damaged or weakened. One thing that could cause that would be a very acidic starter. But it would have to be *very* acidic. The flour might also not be able to stand up to the process and start to degrade but that doesn't seem likely here either.
I suggest that you reduce the hydration next time, perhaps to 70%. When you can work with a 70% dough and get a good loaf, you can start upping the water little by little.
TomP
Too much water and/or starter problem. One is easy to fix - the other takes some time. Enjoy!
As you have found, coil folds (and s&f) work better than kneading with a sticky dough.
2 potential issues to investigate.
WATER. A number of people have had something similar when there is an issue with their water. Has anything changed in your catchment or with your water supply (new pipes, road works, old water filter)? Here it happened after a large flood following a very long dry spell - that washes significant amounts of contamination into the water supply.
FLOUR. I've also had this happen with a bag of flour that was old (past used by date).
I feel for you. It's so disheartening...everything looks normal after Autolyse and then it just gives way in your hands. I have found even if you get something you can bake, the bread is not great and its only really useful when toasted.