Lievito Madre Question
Hello everyone,
I'm a longtime baker hoping to get my lievito madre ready for panettone this season.
For the sake of being concise, my main issue is that my lievito madre seems to triple in the expected time (3.5 - 4h @ 28C) , with a lovely aroma, no strong acidic or metallic flavor. However, my pH meter does not seem to register below 4.4, and that's if I let the starter go a LONG time after it has already tripled.
For additional background: I converted my liquid starter to a lievito madre using a modified version of the apple method. Basically, the starter wasmade with combining equal weights liquid starter and flour, and allowing to ferment bound at 30C for 48 hours. After that, it was fed 1:1:40% and placed in water at 30C for 24 hours. I repeated this (using 30% hydration due to the wet starter) until it would begin to float in under 12 hours. Since then, I have been feeding 1:1:40% and attempting different times and temperatures in order to record a pH of ~4.1. I use King Arthur Bread flour, since panettone flour was not giving me good results and have been pretty happy with the starter's ability to rise and produce what I believe is the correct aroma (slightly fruity and alcohol scent, with no vinegar notes).
I know that bacteria have to be at work for the yeasts to their job, and I read on here that someone was having issues registering low pHs on their lievito madre, but it seems to have been an issue with their pHmeter. At this point, I am inclined to attempt a brioche recipe to see if the starter has any rising power in an actual dough, but I would love any advice anyone might be able to offer here.
Thanks!
I am sure others will chime in, but keeping in mind that the bacteria favoring acidity will grow in a cooler environment, you could try alternating a shorter, warm rise (for the yeasts), followed by a longer, cool rise for the bacteria. Commonly 28C for yeast and 18C for the overnight cool rise.
Also you can try making the feeding for the cool rise be at a somewhat higher hydration to favor bacterial growth. So instead of 40%, try 42-44%. Then back to 40% for the warm rise.
There are many theories and approaches for this....
Thanks for the response!
I think the issue you point out seems correct, that the bacterial community is a little low. I imagine another issue is that the starter is too acetic. It doesn't smell like vinegar, but definitely has a strong alcohol smell first and foremost and ethanol is synthesized from acetic acid by the yeasts. In short, I am using higher hydration to try and swing things towards lactic acid fermentation, using a slightly higher hydration. Lactic acid on a mole per mole basis does have a slightly lower pH than acetic acid, so that might be an indicator of the high pH also.
The only thing that doesn't make a ton of sense is my that my understanding is that yeasts need a lower pH in order to proliferate, and it doesn't seem like mine mind too much here...
Before committing to a diagnosis, can you tell me the initial pH(s) when the dough for a refresh is mixed?
And does it reach a pH below 4.0 after the overnight (maintenance feed)?
Usually it the presence of too much acid to begin with that stands in the way of reaching pH 4.1 in 3-4 hours.
I did not measure the pH of the just mixed LM before putting to ferment at 28C earlier today. I tried a method I found online this morning of doing a bagnetto in 2% sugar water at 38C for 20 minutes, then following a feed at a ratio of 1 : 1.2 : 35% for 4 hours. The starter out of the overnight feed had a pH of just around 5.0. I think I skewed in the wrong direction because I might have misinterpreted the LM as weak instead of strong, since there is no presence of acidic smell or taste (with respect to vinegar notes). I will measure the pH of the mixed LM tomorrow morning and report back.
From what I can interpret from several Italian sources, I may have an overly acetic starter, so I am working on increasing lactic acid. I made an offshoot of my 100% white flour LM and fed 100% white flour and 20% whole wheat (same ratio as above) just to see what that might do to the sensory aspect and pH of the starter. I haven't seen it recommended anywhere, but it seems to be the way to get more lactic activity. I'm curious if anyone has tried anything like this and what results they may have gotten!
Howdy!
This morning, after binding the dough in the hopes of increasing lactic activity, the dough was at pH 4.85, after a night rest of ~20 hours. It was fed 1: 0.8 : 45% and bound in plastic wrap and a cloth overnight at 18C.
For the refresh, I fed it the same ratio, and after feeding, the pH of the LM was 5.23. It's now resting free at 28C for 4 hours. This pH seems unusually high to me. With regular maintenance, it seems that pH of the LM is slowly rising, so I am scared I am taking things in the wrong direction. It is definitely starting to not smell as fragrant as before, now having not much of a smell at all. I have decided to cut out bagnetti until I can get the pH closer to where I would like it.
Please let me know if you have any idea as to what may be happening or if there's any other information you need.
Thank you for the extra data points.
From the data you have given, I am suspect of the accuracy as I am very familiar of what is possible.
pH 4.85 after 20 hours is not really believable. Equally pH 5.23 at that ratio doesn't stack up either.
I think you need to recalibrate your meter, first and foremost.
That aside feeding 1 : 2 (starter : flour) and letting rise at 27/28C until ~4.1 (about 7 hours based on my observations) followed by 1:1 should result in reaching a pH of 4.1 in 3-4 hours.
Thanks so much for the feedback!
I calibrate my pH meter almost daily, and have no issue getting reading below 4 when testing my 100% liquid starter. Is there a more effective way to test the pH for such a stiff dough?
All this is also making me wonder if I possibly had a healthy starter on my hands, although the alveolation never had the striking separation and elongation I've seen boasted all over Instagram.
I will definitely try that feeding scheme and report back with results.
On another thread, I recall that it's hard to measure pH accurately with very dry dough. You can overcome that by taking a small piece and working more water into it. That won't affect the pH but will let the meter work correctly.
I don't have personal experience, but on the thread IIRC the dough had to be over 50% hydration or the readings would be bad.
TomP
Thanks for the response!
Although it's been a while since I've been in a chemistry class, my understanding is that pH is based on the concentration of H+ ions in a solution. My thought would be that adding water would artificially raise the pH, but I don't know if this applied here and will definitely try. I suppose if the pH of the wetter dough is lower than the drier dough, then it's a pH I can be comfortable assuming, since adding water shouldn't lower the pH.
I'll definitely report back with my findings once I test the bound dough tomorrow morning.
My thought would be that adding water would artificially raise the pH
I think this depends on the buffering ability of the substrate, doesn't it?
I didn’t even think of the buffering capacity of water, although it does have some minerals that would do that. I was assuming pure water, so the only issue I’d imagine is with the concentration of the acids. A solution of 1M of hydrochloric acid would have a different pH in 1L vs 2L of water, if I’m not mistaken.
Thanks for the guidance!
I recalibrated my pH meter and tested some LM in a solution, and the pH of the LM was 4.8 and the pH of the solution was 4.9, so I don't think that's the issue.
I only recently converted this LM from a liquid starter, so I'm thinking it's possible I didn't train it enough at temps 28-30C enough. I am trying that now, since the LM is moving away from the nice smells I had earlier, now it kind of just smells like flour.
I'll provide updates here in case anyone else might have similar issues.
I found this page on making panettone, and it seems very useful. It sounds like you know more than what's talked about in it, but if you haven't seen it it may be worth a read -
https://newsletter.wordloaf.org/p/eight-lessons-from-my-panettone-saga
I think I've seen that page. I'm nowhere near the process of making panettone, I'm still trying to get the LM to behave as expected. Will definitely reference that once this LM starts to behave!
I was going to ask what pH meter you have and which buffer solutions are you using to calibrate it? As I said I am not convinced those data points are accurate.
On another, while measuring pH can be useful in informing decisions, others aspects such as volume increase and aromas are certainly more important.
It's a cheaper Chinese-made brand called YINMIK from Amazon. I know it's certainly not the first choice of bakers, but it was within my budget, well rated and many of the high ratings were from bread makers so I assumed it would be an okay meter to start with. I am using a 7.00pH and a 4.00pH solution to calibrate. These are the solutions it came with, and I've only had the meter for a few weeks, so I doubt the solutions are faulty.
This LM is really an interesting one. I just placed it in 28C water after feeding 1 : 1 : 40%, and it is floating after an hour and a half. When kept free, it certainly more than doubles, although I'm not sure if it triples. What's weird is in Sourdough Panettone and Viennoiserie it says that the yeasts are dependent on acids produced by bacteria in order to function, but my experience here does not confirm that.
I can say that the lowest pH readings I've registered have corresponded to the most alcohol/ester-y scents I've been able to get out of the starter, but I have never gotten a scent of vinegar. When I taste it, it basically tastes like dead dough, with an occasional tinge of acid after a few seconds at the tip of my tongue.
I would ask a baker for one since I'm more interesting in maintenance and baking than bringing one to life, but I don't know of any LM artisans near Chicago, and I guess something can always go wrong with any LM, and then I would back to square one without any experience on correcting issues...
After nearly 24 hours at 28C in water, the LM is registering a pH of 4.35, which is a step in the right direction. Interestingly, the water it was resting in registered a pH of 3.90, which is where I would expect the LM to be. Neither of these pHs is close to the bottoming out that happens around 3.5 when a starter has been left too long.
The LM had the same notes of sweet alcohol, but this time also had a hint of acetic smell, as well as a smell I could best describe as hazelnut. The alcohol and hazelnut smells combined reminded me of Frangelico.
I really don't like the fussiness of the water management method and would prefer the acidity stayed in the LM, so I fed 1 : 0.8 : 40% and am holding it free in a jar. I will keep an eye on growth and pH over the course of the day today.