How to get more height in 100% whole wheat sourdough?
I make a nice whole wheat sourdough, but I can’t seem to get more than 2-3” of height regardless of the moisture content or size of loaf. Any ideas? I use the following recipe with a kitchen aid mixer and water on my hands and board, so no added flour. Makes 4 1lb. Loaves. Flour is freshly ground. 90% white wheat, 10% red wheat.
300g starter (homemade and maintained with equal weights water and flour)
880g flour
777g water (from reverse osmosis)
20g sea salt
i feed starter 12 hours earlier. When doubled, I mix by hand flour and water and autolayse about half an hour. I then measure out and add starter and salt. I mix with hook 17 minutes until forms nice ball. I rise until double at room temperature. Preheat oven and stones to 400 deg for hour with steam while forming loaves on parchment paper for second rise. I slice tops and spray with water right before putting in. Remove paper at 15 min. Take out to cool when reaches 210 deg.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11276/who-has-successfully-turned-stone-ground-whole-wheat-proper-loaf#comment-74886
GardenGirl, if possible please post an image or two. Pictures are very informative.
Danny
Some home-millers here include: DanAyo, barryvabeach, SheGar, ifs201, Our Crumb, and some others.
I've been home-milling for a few years, but have only recently joined TFL. These guys have really helped me.
DanAyo patiently helped me get over a big misconception, and that was fermentation with whole grains.
Here's my experience.... use what you think best for you:
1. I have to do what I thought was underferment, in order to get a good oven rise for a fluffy (for WW) loaf.
2. High percent Whole wheat dough ferments FAST, especially if your starter is fed with whole wheat. All those natural enzymes in the bran quickly break down the starch into sugar.
3. I have to do a long, like 1.5 to 3 hour autolyse, aka "soak", before adding starter and salt. Part of that is because I mill coarse, not fine.
4. Keep an eye on "percent prefermented flour". Dan taught me that. That is the weight of flour in your starter/levain, divided by the total weight of flour, including what's in your starter. For me, with a 100% or near-100% whole wheat formula, and a 1 to 3 hour soak/autolyse, then 6 to 7% PPF, is enough such that I can start mix/soak in the morning and bake in the evening. If I want to bulk ferment or final proof all day or overnight, even in the fridge, then I have to lower it to 3 to 3.5% PPF. That's how fast and powerful fermenting a 100% WW dough mass with a whole-wheat starter is.
In your above formula, you had 150 / (880 + 150) = 14.6 % PPF. That's about twice as much I need for a same-day bake with WW, at least in my experience.
5. Taken together, all the above means that instead of a 100% rise (doubling) for the first rise (aka bulk ferment) I am looking for a 30 to 50% rise, and a good "window pane". Let us know if you're not familiar with the window pane test.
6. Then I do a final letter-fold, and shape into a boule, dragging it, scooching it across the countertop, so the top skin gets tight, and then let it proof until it passes the finger poke test. Some people here proof in a banneton, either linen lined or unlined. I use a lined banneton, usually dusted with a 50/50 mix of rice flour and AP flour, or what's on hand. I put it in the banneton so the top is down, and the "seam side" is up -- that helps draw moisture out and give me a good skin on it that scores well. And then I flip it over, score the tight top skin, and bake it with seam side down.
I am not good at 100% WW loaves yet. I've tried. But my best so far has been with 10% AP flour, and 90% home-ground WW, which impressed a white-bread-loving friend of mine. It was a same-day bake, so the taste could have been better if either the bulk ferment or final proof had been overnight im the fridge.
Dave, do you have much success with the finger poke test? When I first started baking again years ago, I made a pan bread using white flour, and had a true finger poke success - as i poked it , it sort of sighed and sagged telling me I have over proofed the final proof. I have not had any success with WW, especially when I retard during final proof, and instead I now try to judge by volume - though it is extremely hard to tell volume increase in a boule shaped banneton . If you have had success, let me know what you are looking for, and whether it works with refrigerated final proof or just room temp.
Barry, IMO, the easiest way by far to final proof is to shape the dough after bulk ferment and put in refrigerator overnight. Bake the cold dough the next day straight out of the fridge and into the preheated oven.
It is the easy way out, but I like it. No more judging the final proof. You know my mantra, “have faith in the oven spring”. The day I started bulk fermenting much less (actual 30-50%) was the day I started getting huge oven spring.
Guess what? I started 2 levains tonight. 2 identical doughs using your 100% whole grain formula and Turkey Red berries. The only variable is 1 dough has a 65% levain and the other 125%. I wanted to go 50 & 100% but used the middlings from the grind in the levain and it was way too dry. Want to test the difference between a stiff and wet levain.
Interesting point about reducing the bulk fermentation by 30 - 50%. On average, if you're doing the bulk at about 70 degrees farenheit, how long is your bulk rise?
I'm asking because I'm really struggling to get any spring on my sprouted wheat loaves. I included some photos - for 2 loaves, used 400 grams bread, 400 grams high extraction wheat, 200 grams of whole grain einkorn, and 250 grams of sprouted einkorn - used very active starter fed 2x per day for a couple days and 2 hours before final mixing.
I need to figure out how to get a better spring out of it so any tips would be greatly appreciated.
It sounds as if I'm doing my bulks for too long according to you.
If i were to lower the bulk and not retard the dough overnight, how long would you do for a final proof if the room temp is between 70 - 72 degrees.
Photos from last bake here.
Thanks for your help in advance!!
"Dave, do you have much success with the finger poke test? .... If you have had success, let me know what you are looking for, and whether it works with refrigerated final proof or just room temp."
Yes, but only with non-refrigerated. I haven't figured out how to time or judge a refrigerated final proof, so I just guessed for the couple of times I did that.
For a room temp final proof finger-poke test, the mostly WW dough is a bit slower to move than mostly white-flour dough. But I look for it slowly springing back at least half way.
For the bulk ferment, it's a balancing game of fermenting slow enough so the dough is not over-fermented by the time the gluten works its way to a good window-pane test.
For my last bake, http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62206/17th-bake-01212020-best-so-far I had a two hour autolyse, and 5 hour bulk ferment. It just barely made a "good enough" window-pane at the end of the 5 hours. But right after I did the final fold/shape and put in banneton, it passed the finger poke test right away.
Hence, I conclude that the 7% PPF was too high. That is... 7 hours was "good" to get the gluten developed, but was "too long" based on the innoculation amount and it fermented too much. Two ways to solve that next time: Knead by hand or mixer a bit to get gluten ready earlier and reduce bulk ferment time, or.... reduce innoculation so I can use the same amount of time without over-fermentation.
I'm leaning toward the latter, reduce innoculation, because a long ferment is what I want for flavor.
GG, your hydration of ~89% sounds right. I wonder if you are not over kneading in the mixer. 17 minutes sound long. Also if your loaves are free form, you may want to raise the oven temp to at least 450F. If they are in pans, I have no experience with that.
Try to post images so we can take a look.
Danny
Dan, I normally do final proof in the fridge overnight - as well as bulk ferment, and refreshing the starter, since I normally try to fit it into my work schedule. Sometimes FP overnight leaves the dough underproofed, sometimes overproofed, sometimes just right.
It is easier for me to see the same variance in BF, since I use a straight sided container. Sometimes it has increased 50% in height, sometimes 200% over the same time at the same temp. My guess is the variance comes from the strength of the starter. On occasion, I refresh and leave on the counter at 1:3:3 for about 8 hours, other times I use a similar ratio but have the starter in a wine cooler to get a less mature starter. Other times, I refresh and keep it at 90 F for a few hours, then into the fridge. I am still playing to get more sour, and that is why I vary the timing and temps on the starter.
Your experience is not something I’ve encountered. My starters are predictable and although the BF is not judged too much by time it seems to be fairly predictable also, considering variation in flour(s) (white four/whole wheat, etc).
I assume you have a Brod & Taylor. Mine is almost always used for both starters and dough.
You mentioned 90F for your starter. I imagine you are fermenting that warm for LAB, correct?
I have written this many times, but it bears repeating. The sour flavor I build in sd bread takes place mostly in the bulk ferment, and fermentation in general. I no longer keep super sour starters, because experience (100s of loaves) have taught me different. I can take a super sweet (1:5:5) starter and ferment an extremely sour bread. But 100% WW is not something I have experience with concerning sour flavor. It ferments too fast for me. Because of the quicker ferment, the dough is unable to build the acid load required for super sour flavor. I do believe the actual WW gives the dough a sour-like taste.
Think about this -
We know that our starter (acidic or not) will get raunchy sour if it is fermented long and warm. Should we expect the dough to do exactly the same thing. The great obstacle to this seeming simple explanation is that dough degradation can bite you in the rear...
Danny
Just thinking... Ever notice that the stated authentic formulas for SFSD are 100% white flour? Maybe they knew something.
I'm seeing a starburst across the top of each loaf. Try different scores especially one that doesn't cut across the very top several times. One cut off to the side instead of the middle may also get a taller rise. A wide # or pinwheel is also worth a shot.
thanks for all your advice! I’ll try less bulk rise, longer autolayse, shorter knead. Try to get it a bit tighter, a moon shaped score, perhaps a slightly longer second rise (I only let it sit one hour while I warm up the oven and stones. I’ll post results tomorrow night.
I used a semi-circular cut before baking at 425 degrees. It cooked faster without getting too brown. I do think I got a little bit (maybe a quarter of an inch) more rise than with the starburst pattern. I’ll try some of the other suggestions next time.
Garden Girl, Assuming this last bake utilized your initial formula, your hydration is 90% and the percentage of prefermented flour is 14.5%. This looks good.
In my opinion no scoring technique will solve this particular issue. The very first thing to direct your focus is towards oven spring. Without oven spring there will be no height, bloom, or ear. Scoring technique is very important, but without oven spring the results of any type of scoring will be subpar. I know this because I learned the hard way. I spent years trying to improve my scoring with no success.
So, focusing on oven spring and nothing else at this time, what are some possibilities for improvement?
Hopefully others will write in with alternate possibilities for this solution. Of all of the points above, the health of your starter would be my best guess. For whole wheat, a starter should be able to triple or quadruple. (We can help if needed) Seconded by the possibility of over fermentation. In my opinion, the very best book for learning to bake 100% whole wheat is Laurel’s Kitchen Bread Book. In it there is a chapter called , “A Loaf for Learning”. If the book contained only that chapter, it would be worth the price.
What Is lacking in intelligence (I lack a lot), is compensated for with persistent tenacity...
Here are 2 post with accompanying videos that were published during the time the bright light came on for me.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61181/tip-have-faith-oven-spring
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/61659/ear-bloom-and-oven-spring-skin-deep-beauty
OH! Don’t get caught up in the “Steam Thing”. You don’t need external steam to get huge oven spring.
Great info, thanks. I never thought to see if my starter would more than double. I only feed my starter every two weeks (30g starter, 50g 100% whole wheat flour - sometimes hard red, sometimes hard white, occasionally a little rye, depending on what I have ground), so I might be able to improve it there. I grind with a Nutrimill classic on quite fine, so it’s about as fine as you can get at home. The bran on the red tends to cut, but the white seems more gentle. All white is a bit bland for us. We liked the 150g of red better this time for taste.
I’ll try not letting the bulk rise go quite as long next time I am able to be home and awake while it rises. That’s probably going to be key. That will be assisted by trying a reduced amount of levain which will slow it down to fit into my schedule, as suggested above. Perhaps I needed so much because my starter is not robust enough. it may take a few weeks, but I will give all this a try.
Garden Girl, would you like to explore your starter? From what you’re writing, it seems a better feed routine may need to be established. 100% whole wheat will require a very robust starter to make “great” bread. Fermentation won’t make up for a sluggish starter, IF your starter is the problem. Maybe it is fine, but it should be considered.
If this is something you want to pursue, tell us everything you can about your starter.
Things like;
A starter that is fed 100% freshly milled whole grain should double in 3-4 hours at a slightly warm temperature. Many triple in 6 hr. Some quadruple. Any healthy starter (even if weak) should gain activity in a relatively short time if refreshed with that goal in focus. It does takes some experimentation and a watchful eye, but it’s habits can be learned. We can control our starters if we feed and maintain with that goal in mind.
Here is a time lapse video showing the growth of a healthy and active starter. During the video you will see the growth cycle during the initial feed and the last half (12 second mark) showing after a refresh.
https://youtu.be/Iv0gA8bLpRY
I want to help to get that “great” 100% whole wheat bread!
Danny
By the way, you told us that you only bake every couple of weeks or so. Have you considered baking a single smaller loaf (~400-500 grams) more frequently, to speed the learning process? You could make the neighbors very happy :D
I would try doing the bulk ferment rise to less than 50% instead of doubling. Is RO water the only option for you? Some minerals are helpful for yeast activity. A longer autolyse of two hours or more would be another thing to try. My attempts at 100% WW have mostly produced door stops and bricks. The little bit of extra nutrition was not worth the trouble so I max out the WW at 50% to made a decent loaf.
Good Luck
I had many, many doorstops before getting to the place where my 100% bread is quite good. Now I’m going for great. That’s why I am trying to change one or two things at a time to incrementally improve, based on convenience more than priority - I overslept, so the bulk rise was not less than before, oh, well, change the score. We don’t buy bread, so this bread I bake every two weeks is all we eat. I don’t want to eat bricks for two weeks.
Some other thoughts I had would be to do a fold or two during the bulk to develop more layers and tension in the dough and that would help give it more height and spring in the oven.
The amount of dough you used would normally make two loaves for me.
The results were underwhelming. I fed my starter three days, twice a day (always with Equal weight water and flour), with 50 more flour and water than starter, so it doesn’t run out of food. For the bread, I used 200g starter (starter had not yet doubled, only about 50%). I also only bulk rose about 50%. It took quite a while because of the lower amount of starter. The dough seemed so much smaller, I only made three loaves. They spread more than usual and rose a bit less than usual. I didn’t seem to give me any more spring. I don’t have time to bake more than once every two weeks.
I didn't start getting a really great rise from my milled WW sourdough until I started using a cloche.
machine mixing for 17 minutes sounds a bit long to me.
T'internet bakers of varying degrees often mention the use of a teaspoon of vinegar to help the rise. It will not adversely affect the dough and you will not taste it.
How are you coming with this? I am also working on improving my 100% whole wheat sourdoughs. I found that shaping and proofing well helped.
Something that I am experimenting now is lowering my hydration. WW is thirsty and we know from white sourdoughs that we can get big open crumb with higher hydration. However, I have found it hard to build the same tension with WW breads and as a result, they spread on the baking stone and bake flat (still tasty). Lower hydration (72%) got me the loaf below. It was shaped and proofed in a banneton. Then baked in the open oven on a stone. I have been more pleased with the rise and finished shape.
I did a 45 minute autolyse then mixed in starter and then salt. Finished mixing at around 10pm and let it bulk overnight. Shaped and proofed first thing in the morning and then baked at 415F.
Anyway, I love whole wheat... looking forward to getting even better with it!
That is a fantastic loaf for 100% WW. What is your baking technique? Dutch oven? For how long?
I do have a dutch oven, but I often use a baking stone with a pan or two on the bottom with towels in water to create steam (that is how this one was done). The crust turns out better in the dutch oven, but I like the rise I get on the stone. I also can't do the oblong shape that I prefer in the dutch oven. I usually do the first 15 @ 475F, then drop to 425F for 30 min and then turn the oven off for the final 10-15 (depending on how dark it has gotten).
Have you a picture of the loaf bottom?
Hello, this is my first post. I have been trying to make 100% WW SD for about 2 months I have scoured the internet and watched and read everything. I finally had some success. I grind my own hard white berries with a wondermill set on the finest setting.
460g flour
390g water
120g starter (made with the exact same WW flour @100% hydration, fed once after removing from fridge and given 6 hours to grow. It is very perky, and often grows even in the fridge.)
8g salt
One trick was a long autolyse of 2 hours on counter and 5 hours in fridge, (or the whole time overnight in fridge). This means the mixture is cold when I add the starter. I know nothing about baking bread, but it made sense to me that the cold dough would help me get a bit longer bulk rise. After adding in starter and salt, I hand mixed the dough for a few minutes to develop gluten and mix it well. Then 3 stretch and folds 1/2 hour apart and a bulk rise of about 3.5 hours after that. (NOTE: my kitchen is hot! I live in Arizona, about 80 degrees, but remember the dough starts out cold). Then preshape and rest on bench for 20 minutes, shape and proof about 30-45 minutes in a small bowl lined with a towel and coated with rice flour.
My next secret was the right kind of baking vessel which I was resistant to changing. Anything that allowed the dough to sag due to high hydration just didn't work. Finally I went out and found an old Rival brand crockpot liner for $4 used (since a Dutch oven is too expensive). Perfect for one round loaf. The shape keeps the dough from spreading. I quickly transfer the dough from the small round bowl that I proof it in by overturning the bowl onto parchment with a tray underneath. Then lift the parchment into the pot. I had to cover pot with foil since I'm not sure the lid is oven safe. See result below. I think the baking vessel made a difference. And not over doing the bulk rise or proof! I agree with others that letting it rise to double was pushing it for me. I can start in the morning and pull out a loaf from the oven in the evening, but must be home all day to keep an eye on progress. I find sourdough to be like a baby, and must be watched at all times unlike a kid that can play on it's own.
It tasted very good but not necessarily sour. It was moist but perfectly cooked. One last thing, I did not preheat oven. Baked at 450 for 50 minutes. Throw in a cold oven. Turn it on and bake covered for 40 minutes and uncover to brown last 10 minutes. Not sure if that improved oven spring but I didn't want to leave anything out as to my process. It does save me from having an even hotter house. Not sure what you can take from all this, but I did see improvement with this process from my earlier attempts which were flatter.
Hi,
I'm new to sourdough and am not successful in WW bread yet.
I just read your comments, I stay in India (Asia) and its too hot here, 40 Degree C ( 104 F). Can you advise me how should I handle from autolyze to bulk ferment? I am unable to provide the ambient temperature outside.
So should do my bulk ferment in the fridge. ie: 45 min autolyze then Stretch and fold every 30 min removing from fridge. Does that make sense to form the gluten?
Please guide.
Thanks,
Sonia
Sonia, as I am just a beginner, I'm not sure what I would do if my kitchen was even hotter! Right now, because of the heat, my bulk ferment happens really quickly. The autolyse in the the fridge helps slow down the bulk ferment I think due to the dough being cold when I add the starter. I do notice it does take some time for the dough to really warm up, but once it does it certainly doesn't take long for the bulk ferment to happen. In your case you need to find a somewhat cooler environment for your bulk rise. You could try the fridge, and just play with how long to leave it in there. But perhaps that would slow down the rise a little too much. I have not had success with a bulk rise in the fridge.
Do you have some sort of cooler? Like the kind you take camping or on a trip. If you have one that is big enough to hold your bowl, you could simply throw in some ice cubes or one of those cold packs, and leave your dough in there to bulk rise instead. Sort of the opposite of a proofing oven. Or maybe even a microwave. Stick in your bowl and throw in some cool packs and shut the door. With luck you could get it to be somewhere in between too hot and too cold. I had to do tons of experiment loaves before I settled on the right timing for my kitchen temperatures. Who knows how it will all change once winter comes! Good luck!!
Sonia, the cooler idea is a good one. You may also try storing the flour in the freezer for a few hours before mixing, and use ice water as well so that the dough starts out much cooler than room temp, which sounds very warm.
Ha ha, I only know the cooler idea works because it is what I do when I am fermenting sauerkraut, and my house is too warm. The only difference would be that with sauerkraut, I have to keep it in the cooler over weeks, and constantly put in a new cooler pack. If I tried to ferment sauerkraut in the fridge, it would be too cold. The cooler brings it all down just enough to keep things from fermenting too fast or not at all. Try to find a cooler that is just big enough to fit your bowl, so that you don't have to use too much ice or too many packs. That's why I thought a small microwave might be the perfect size, and also they have a good seal on the door.
Check this out
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64850/smart-sourdough-book-testers-needed#comment-466196
Any updates? How about folding the bread every 15-30 minutes, for a total of 3-4 folds? That was one technique I learned from Josey Baker's book, and I've been making 100% w.w. (hard red) sourdough bread that aren't short and squat ever since! (Many hockey pucks were made in the past..). His hydration is rather high-- about 85 or 90, I forget.. I also find that it helps to use some sort of baker- I use a combo cooker , and I think it helps with oven spring !
Wow, that's a lot of starter!! I have been wondering how much starter is actually needed to make a 100% whole grain loaf rise enough to be considered "fluffy". My general recipe is a total of 350g flour, of which 200g are usually bread flour, and the rest if whole grain milled on my mockmill. I feed my starter (10g left at room temp overnight) with freshly milled whole grain (half rye, half red wheat) in the morning and it rises in about 3-4 hours depending on temp. I feed 1:2:2 and only use that levain (60g) . Autolyze is usually 1 hour after I feed the starter for about 2 hours. I start counting the "bulk ferment" the minute I add the starter, and I never ferment longer than 5 hours, but it depends on what the dough tells me. Yes, I talk to my dough. Doesn't everybody???? :) Using all whole grain and no bread flour, I'm wondering whether to cut fermentation time down to 3 hours, since what I read here and elsewhere about the speed of fermentation of whole grains. Does that make sense or am I still confused???
I am not sure whether you are asking about the fermentation time of your starter or the bulk fermentation of the loaf. Either way, I think you just need to talk to your dough, or starter, and see when it is ready, not by the clock. Unfortunately, judging when it is ready is pretty difficult, though I have had a little success using straight sided containers and looking at volume.
The thing that made the biggest difference for me is baking in a preheated cloche (or dutch oven). I now get great spring.
Part of my challenge is that I'm baking a lot with slightly weaker flours, such as Sonora and Edison, because I love the taste. Here is my latest attempt - 60% Sonora, 40% Edison. Any suggestions to improve oven spring or crumb are welcome.
Hydration:
87%. Just went by feel and experience with these flours.
Autolyse:
12-hour cold overnight autolyse (inspired by Elly's Everyday method) but then left it at room temp for four hours while my young leaven was building.
Levain:
I used 15%. Based it on this Bread Lab method: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/sites.cahnrs.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2014/09/Bread-Lab-Whole-Wheat.pdf
Mixing:
I didn't do more than 7 or 8 minutes of Rubaud mixing after adding the levain and salt. Maybe more mixing would help build strength and improve the oven spring?
Bulk fermentation:
4.5 hours. The dough rose significantly before that time but there weren't really bubbles on the side of the bowl so I kept going for a bit. The dough felt nice and airy when shaping but spread a bit after the pre-shape.
Any other suggestions? Before you ask, my starter is very strong :)
Thanks!
Since you really like those 2 types of wheat, and you say they are low in protein, have you consider baking in a pan? Your crumb IMO is nice. The issue that I see is a squat loaf.
A while back I did a comparative test of various types of wheat. See #4 in the link below. It uses White Sonora and BF (50/50), baked in a pan.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66576/tip-comparative-test-fresh-milled-whole-grains
I'd seen your wheat post before but it was good to re-read it. It did make me miss Turkey Red. I will probably bring that back to combine with some of my whiter whole wheat flours (Edison, Sonora, Patwin). I have quite a few pounds of those to use up!