Questions about Mini´s favourite rye

I suppose I'm the one to answer most of your questions if I can.  If anyone wants to contribute, go right ahead!  I will repeat the Q's to answer to the best of my ability.  I do want to say that it's great that you've played around with the recipe. 

- how do you dock the loaf to let the air escape? I tried a wooden toothpick but as the dough is very sticky I could not really manage to do it properly. The dough sticks to the toothpick.   Wet it first, dip it fully into water before poking and between pokes.

- it happened to me twice that there was a nice oven spring at the beginning of the baking but later the bread shrunk down a little.    Sounds close to being overproofed.  Shorten the proofing times for your conditions or include the salt shortly after stirring together.

- I read in Hamelaman´s book that rye breads should be put in a very hot oven and steamed for shorter time than wheat-based breads. But Mini recommends cold start and to cover the dish (steam during 20-25 minutes). Why? Does it matter?    The first 15 minutes the oven and pan need to warm up so the steaming is not so long, although lately I've been steaming longer.  I suggest this method for using a cold oven.  A hot oven would be different.

- it is mentioned that when using some wheat flour it is possible to knead it first and add rye flour later.
Do you mean that only a part of water should be used for the initial kneading, and the rest only when rye flour is introduced? Otherwise it would be a very wet and gluten developement would take a long time, wouldn´t it?  

I stir (not knead) it into all the water and sourdough starter, along with spices and any additional altus and it is a sloshy mess, but the more I take a whisk or spoon to it before adding the rye, the better.  One can also just stir wheat in to wet it and let it stand 20 minutes giving it a stir before adding the rye flour.  I don't think it has to be dough consistancy to develop gluten.

- When I lacked enough time, I also tried to mix all ingredients at once (salt included) and put into the pan 30-60 minutes later. It did not seem to make much difference. Could there be some negative effect?   

The fermenting time will lengthen with early salt addition.   Shaping the loaf without a bit of bulk rise first will lead to uneven distribution of bubbles in the loaf, small ones at the bottom and large ones at the top.  Doing a fold several hours into the ferment with wet hands will distribute the bubbles, even out dough temp differences and give you a feel for the rise going on inside the loaf.  It might even give the dough more strength to stand up taller.

- recommended internal temperature is 93°C after app. 90 minutes. Mine reached 98°C after 60 minutes 200°C (400g flour, loaf pan). Is that normal? 

Sounds good, I haven't tried a smaller loaf yet.  It would stand to reason that the smaller the loaf the faster it would bake.  Altus lengthens the proofing window and the bake and lots of seeds tend to shorten the bake.  I was surprised how short my monkey rye baked -- it could also be the pan.  Long loaves tend to bake faster than round high loaves.

- I am still not 100% sure how to recognize that the loaf is ready to go to the oven. Is it when small bubles start to tear on the surface or is that already too late? 

The trickiest part.  I would say if you see bubbles popping on the surface, anything larger than the size of a pearled straight pin (3.5mm) it might be too late.  A few that were already on the surface when shaping will pop but the ones that come from much deeper in the loaf should stay there, when they move up, the protein bonds that hold them are deteriorating.  A sign that there will not be much oven spring.  I found out that when the loaf top is made very smooth (but still slightly domed) when shaping, watch it, as it rises it becomes more irregular, dock it and bake it before any bubbles show up and it is still domed.  I found that if I coat the loaf or top with ground nuts or seeds or anything that sticks, I can use a poke test.  Bake the loaf when there is just a tiny bit of resistance still there. 

Hope this helps.

I am new here an slowly finding my way around this vast network of knowledge.

I read a bit and then spend days recovering from sensory overload!  I want to understand it all NOW....

I love using rye too and want to make sure I have the right recipe on hand. Are you referring to Mini's 'Favorite 100% Rye Ratio' (1/3.5/4.16) in youquestion above?

Thanks! 

Thank you.  I always like finding something new to try out on the family and neighbors and this recipe seems to have gotten quite a lot of good 'reviews' here.  I look forward to giving it a try.

:-)

Your recipe card looks just like my brain feels!

:-)

You only need to know how much starter you have to plug into the formula, that is the first part and everything else is figured from there.  Original Thread is HERE.

One part rye sourdough starter 100% hydration/ 3.5 parts water/ 4.16 rye flour  

Then 1.6 to 2% salt for the amount of flour (normal amounts for dough)  and the flour can be either 100% rye or some part can be substituted with absorbent flours such as spelt or bread flour.  But the beauty is the simplicity.  Mix it up, let it rise a few hours, lightly fold and shape it gently and let it finish rising (total of about 8 hrs..)  Bake and eat the next day.  It's a basic recipe that lends itself to all kinds of tweeks (I can't help myself.)  A form is suggested as the dough is quite wet.  My favorite mix includes altus and walnuts.  But nothing is written in stone.

The last loaf was Seedy Nutty Monkey Rye.  The next one is in the works and won't look anything like it.   (not much else does...)   

Mini

I like to roast them just a little first and yes, put them in soon after the salt.

To me the dough feels more like meat loaf or a big ball of hamburger (minced) meat that won't keep its shape.  If you rest it in one open hand longer than 5 seconds, it wants to sag between your fingers to escape.  It is hard to see hydration in a photo but I know I have one.  My husband took it while I stood by the sink.   If the dough is too wet, it is impossible to hold.  Notice how clean looking my wet hands appear to be.

Altus.  If it is dried add enough water to get the hydration of the final dough 85%  or use it to balance the moisture in the dough.  Dry to make the dough stiffer or add water as you mix it with wet hands.  Because it is already salt balanced, one doesn't have to recalculate salt.  I like it to ferment with the starter and throw some into the dough as well.  I will mix up the starter for what I need and then work altus into it and adding water if needed and let it ferment overnight.  More info on the old thread: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15736/mini039s-favorite-rye-ratio#comment-107528

I found the recipe improved as soon as I reduced the % of prefermented dough into the recipe.   It worked well and I didn't have to keep lots of starter or spend a day stepping up my starter with ever larger feeds.  The rye altus has become a very important ingredient.  

Mini

I decided to give this loaf a try.  Mine did not look at all like what I see in the pictures above.

I started with 100g starter that I let sit out all night and ripen.  This morning I ground up 410g of rye and added it to the starter after adding 350g of water to the starter.  I let the mixture sit out on the counter for 1 1/2 hours before adding the salt. (Temp. in the kitchen this morning was only 63°F/17°C so I gave it a bit of extra time to warm up.)  

I added the salt and mixed it in thoroughly. Covered the bowl and let it sit out for an additional 3 hours.  Temp. had risen to 75°F/23°C by then.

Ready for the fold but the consistency was that of a ripe rye sourdough.  Very spongy and it simply fell apart in my hands.  Very sticky too.  I persevered in spite of the gooey mess. Any photo of MY hands would have attested to it's clinginess. I put it into a parchment lined clay baking dish - small Romertoph - but there was noooo way it would stay in a ball.  It was as flat as a pancake...

In the above directions Mini says to let it proof for 4 hours...but do not let it double.

My loaf had almost doubled in 1 hours time...(I live at 5280'/1609m above sea level.). I went ahead and docked it and placed it in my cold oven at 390°F/198°C with the lid on the cooker.

I had to drop my son off at a gymnastics class and did not remove the top after the initial 25 minutes of baking time.....in fact, the lid remained on throughout the entire bake.

I have not cut into the loaf.  It had no oven spring but did smell wonderful.  Who knows how it will be tomorrow when it will be cut into.

So my question...Why was my dough such a spongy mess rather than the smooth ball I see in Mini's hand?

I assume the final proof time was due to the elevation at which I live and can adjust that next batch with less starter and a cooler place to let it sit.

Thanks for any suggestions.  

Yep, I tried mixing this in a food processor and I will never do it again, at least not all of it. What a mess! The best is just a bowl and a sturdy spoon or heavy duty spatula.

For Pam (and my uncle who has just broken his r. arm) I tied my right arm behind my back and was doing fine. My processor was big enough for the amount using 170g starter and I first used the machine whisk to blend in the starter, water, and 100g spelt plus spices. (then I should've stopped) *

I switched to a hook and worked in the flour quickly but gradually. Also let the dough sit in the machine an hour and added salt.

Then I tried to remove the dough!

Yikes!
With one arm, no go, so if you're home alone back up to the *. If you have some kitchen help, sit back and enjoy watching your assistant. (They may only do this once for you if you fill your pants with laughter.) Now I did get the lid off but couldn't get the hook or dough out. Stuck. Had to use both hands and then still had one hand all sticky and a mess to clean up the hook, bowl and lid. It was all glued together! A process to clean out the dough -- maybe that's why the machine is referred to as a processor?

(If I had poured the loose batter into a large bowl after working in the spelt, that might have been easier, rinsing out the bowl and whisk. I could then sit down with the bowl in my lap with folded legs (on the floor) and slowly work in the flour.

A large frying pan lid is great to cover. Simple folding can also be done in the bowl and after enough sprinkling of water, the whole dough ball will simply slide out of the bowl into a form or pan.

Thanks, Mini oven, for a very tasty and easy loaf.

I used 100% whole rye so it was very dense. what sort of rye flour did you use in your original loaf and that wonderful nutty 'monkey bread'?

i flubbed it some. I misread the time for the first proof, leaving it for 4hrs instead of your recommended 3 hrs. I also left it at a rather cold temp, betw 21-22 degrees celsius. By the time i checked on it after 4 hrs, it had risen by only 20%. Would you say that's along the right lines or too little?

My dough at that point did not at all resemble the photo you showed. It was just paste-like. There was none of that pull, for want of a better word, that allows one to shape it, no matter how wet a dough. So i just poured it into an oiled pullman tin. as the temp was higher by then, my dough almost doubled in less than 2 hrs. I was less careful abt letting it double as i thought i had squeezed quite a bit of dough into a too-small tin so the expansion upwards should be higher.

In the oven, there was no spring as i had suspected, but neither was there any collapse. However, it baked in just 1hr, and i felt it could have been even shorter. I cut into it too soon, so the crumb is a bit gummy but otherwise it's very nice, not the moistest rye but not dry as i had feared. However, i had read one in one of yoru replies that you can bend a slice backwards - i don't think mine will stand up to any bending!

Should i attribute this diff to the fact that i used whole rye flour? Do you actually have oven spring? and how much taller is your final loaf as compared to the just shaped loaf? I suppose it also very much depends on how one shapes it.

all in, very tasty and i'm goign to try it again with seeds and a mixture of rye flours! THANKS! you make rye easy :))

I had this for lunch with smoked salmon, delicious :)

The next time I'll try with a mixture of whole and light rye. How do you think buckwheat will impact the loaf?

The reason the final proof was so rapid is because my ambient temp is very high (I live in the tropics). For the bulk proof, I could improvise using a thermal pot but cant fit the pullman tin in it. Unless I refrigerate. Could that work??

Oh yes, I noticed that there was a very very slight gumminess to the crumb. Yet it had registered 95-97 degrees when I pulled it out. Maybe a longer bake at a lower temp? I hardly have any experience with rye.

In any case, looking forward to the next few days' of mellowing rye and spice, yum :) Thanks again!

before adding to the dough would be tasty.   Buck wheat flour is heavy but the hulled seeds whole are soft enough to be eaten whole in bread,  little tiangular shapes.   Toasting... might be interesting indeed.

I'm cold.  I finally gave in to aches and pains and turned on the heat.  The furnace kicked in immediately set at 20°C and no wonder with 11°C (51°F) outside.  Haven't had it on since first week in Nov. relying on passive sunshine but we've had a week of wind and rain and although my dough is happy, the dough mixer (me) is not.  Most comfortable in turtle necks, hubby thinks I'm exaggerating.  I saw a woman in a parka at the supermarket!  Didn't find the desperately needed rye flour but left with a chill up my back.  I had just enough flour to stir up a rye loaf (sort of) before I went shopping.  Did come up short so I added 140g AP flour to the dough.  The recipe I'm using at the moment is ratio (1/3.5/4.16) using 200g ripe starter.

• 200g starter     (Containing about 20g ripe starter, 60g water, 50g flour and 70g altus, made anywhere from 8 to 12hrs before using)
• 700g water  
• 832g Rye flour   (or 800g rye flour with 25g Chia seeds) (Chia soaks up water and gives it back during the bake, raises protein and polyunsaturated fats,reduces carbs and adds fiber)
• 17g salt

Roasted nuts and seeds:  (minimum)

• 5g - 6g mixed bread spice (coriander, caraway, fennel)   Added to starter but can also be added to dough.  If in starter use less as soaking increases flavors.
• 4g Caraway  
• 10g Sesame seeds
• 35g Sunflower seeds 
• 60g Walnuts broken

Because the rye flour here contains more bran than my Austrian 960, I'm getting faster fermenting times on the dough.  I also have a simple wall oven with upper and lower heat or both at the same time.  I'm adding the salt to the wet ingredients along with seeds and nuts and adding the rye flour last.  Mix all the flour until moistened and cover the shaggy sticky mass for 2.5 to 3 hrs depending on the temperature.  Shape or (in the case of the last loaf) plop into a cloth lined colander (I used cornstarch to dust the cloth, works like a charm!)  

The Chia seeds are great at giving this dough a thicker consistency and therefore more control.   I could't use wet hands to shape,   Using a banneton or cloth lined basket, surface wet dough would stick so I just scraped it out of my mixing bowl and pressed it into the floured form, mounding it up in the middle as best I could.  Smoothed out the surface by sprinkling first with cornstarch or rye flour and covered with a plate or lid.  I have 78% humidity so I did not slip the colander inside a plastic bag or bowl and left it out on my table for 2.5 hrs.  As the dough rose, the floured surface crazed or cracked the surface letting me know it was rising.  

When it started to pinhole, I slowly tipped it into a cold thin greased 24cm  aluminum dutch oven that's shiny on the bottom.  I had already removed the plastic handles and covered the whole top with a double layer of aluminum foil.  I put my oven rack at the lowest position without being on the oven bottom.  Turned on the upper/lower coil heat for 190°C  for the first 15 minutes and then to just the lower heat coil for the next 15 minutes.  Then back to the upper/lower setting for the rest of the bake.  After one hour of baking, I removed the foil so the top could brown, it was shiny.   That is when I remembered I forgot to dock the loaf.  Oh well...  I baked the loaf  for wheat flour inside temp reached 99°C (210°F) and let it rack cool.

I baked it in a 24cm ∅ dutch oven as a free form loaf for one and a half hours.   (In the 20cm ∅ dutch oven the same loaf albeit taller takes 2 hrs. and rises above the 9cm height of the pot.)

The loaf cooled to a center height of 8cm or almost 3.5 inches and slightly smaller than the dutch oven.

Just a repeat of the 800g rye (with speckled flour) with 25g of Chia seeds. 

Several flub-ups happened.  I forgot to turn the top heat back on during the bake (1.25 hrs of bottom heat) and forgot to remove the foil.  When I smelled the bread after baking 1.5 hrs., the internal temp was done but the top was pale and the oven had risen to 220°C on the bottom shelf.  I removed the bread to sit on the foil tent and moved the shelf up so the loaf was above the middle of the oven.  Then I turned on the upper coil to finish browning the bread.  It sure is a perdy loaf and I've decided to keep using chia & a banneton with my 100% ryes.  I've changed the style of the ceramic baker dish I've been working on...  continue to work on because I don't like changing the settings during the bake.  I want to just pop in a dough and come back when it's done.  

Another flub-up is when the dough landed in the pan, it wasn't perfect so I shook the pan until the dough was in the center.  I did dock this one and don't see much difference between the two in height.  (I will hear about it if yesterday's loaf is full of bubbles or has a hollow under the crust.)  If you look close, you can see the toothpick holes.  No biggie.  Very happy with this loaf and the room is warmer from the oven too!

Flub-up #3 was using a starter that got started with the other loaf but I ran out of flour, it was already ripe on the morning of the 19th and then it sat out covered all day, was fed some 85% hydration altus in the afternoon and then got stuck in the fridge for the night.   The two loaves were rising much the same with 5 hrs from mixing the dough to putting in the cold oven.  Started both at 7:30 and put in the oven at 12:30.  Crumb shot tomorrow.

Today's bake:  3 inches tall, 9 inches across